Historic Day in California

[moyer777]

Well, I'm busy for a day, come back and wow a very interesting conversation!

Kevin and all, I have appreciated the civility of the discussion.--

WARNING... I don't usually talk a lot about my faith in a strong way on this forum, but I am going to say a few things here.  I'm only doing it to put things in context.  Feel free to skip this post if you are offended by overtly religious or Christian references. Forgive me, after all -I am a preacher. :)

I'm a bit hesitant to even offer my opinion because there is a bit of stereotyping being done here, and not that I blame anyone, as a Christian my fellow believers range from permissive to intolerant.  So I can understand why people might say the things that have been said.

I want to say first off that I have become very good friends with Kenny.  In my world that is uncommon because most Christians I know wouldn't have even talked with him.  What a shame.  They are missing out on a wonderful warm human being that has really become a bright person in my life.  He is creative, fun, talented and a breath of fresh air.    I have other gay friends but they are not as close as Kenny, so we haven't talked like Kenny and I have.  I appreciate our friendship Kenny, and would never want to harm it in anyway-in fact I'm grateful for your perspective and insight.. This has challenged me. 

I think that until someone really opens their heart and quits judging (on both sides of the issue) they can't really begin an honest conversation about this topic.  Kenny and I know what we believe and where we stand on things, but we still have a strong friendship.  We focus on what we have in common, not on what we don't.

With all that said, it is a tough subject because I feel the Bible is clear on homosexuality. I'm not going to do a big bible study here, but suffice it to say there are many scriptures about it all, and both sides of the issue has beaten each other over the head with them.  I'm not sure that has done any good, because the Bible isn't supposed to be used as a weapon against people.  It's supposed to encourage us and help us live life to the fullest.

What I'm also clear on is that God loves everyone no matter what orientation they are.  I think sexual orientation, or any behavior for that matter is secondary to the fact that we are all human beings put on a planet with a purpose and destiny. While I may think certain things are sin, I love people.  In my Bible Jesus died on the cross and rose again for everyone, not just the ones that act a certain way and jump through some hoops. 

The only thing I can see that saves us is faith in what Jesus did on the cross.

While I might not agree with the lifestyle that anyone of us chooses to live it isn't my call to condemn a person.  That is up to God.  It is up to every person to read for themselves, pray if they want to ---and ask God how they should live.  I think God is big enough to sort it all out if someone honestly wants His opinion.  We all mess it up when we insult each other, or worse abuse each other because we think we have it all together. In my opinion none of us do.  We are all human.

I haven't always lived the lifestyle I do.  All the way up to 18 I lived however I wanted too.  We all should change and grow as human beings, and I am not the same person I was even 10 years ago.  I don't want to limit anyone.  That's why I go to counseling on a regular basis and have friends in my life that hold me accountable for my actions.  I pray and I study the scriptures but I try to make it as practical as I can.  If I'm doing something wrong then I am hopeful that I will figure it out.  But that is what I do.  I can't make anyone else do that.  Freewill is just that-- freewill.  For me, I let the Bible define right and wrong.  That of course can be challenging, not everyone agrees with that, obviously.

So I guess this makes me think of a few things...

1.  Do we believe the Bible as an authority in our life?
If we don't then the argument is over.  What's the point? Believe whatever you want to.  If there is any chance that it is true, then we should probably at least keep an open mind to do a little research on it.

2.  Can we set aside our prejudice and bigotry and be honest without condemning?
I can believe I'm right, but trying to force that on someone by condemning them only drives them away.  It does nothing to help the situation.  We must all come from the angle that we are in the same boat floating on a planet called Earth.  Each of us deserves respect and the right to our opinion.  There is a great scripture that says, It is His kindness that leads us to repentance.  Notice it says kindness, not harshness and judgmentalism.

So I can disagree with someone without being a jerk or slamming them.  I can even support the person as a fellow human being.  Our choice to treat each other with respect and kindness is just that.  OUR CHOICE.

3.  Can we let God be God in someone else's life?
The bottom line is I can't force my beliefs on anyone.  I can share my faith and my friendship, but I can't and shouldn't force anyone to believe what I do. It has to be a choice.  I honestly believe that if someone really wants to know God then they can.  I hope everyone does someday, but I can't force it.  I truly think God is big enough to reveal himself if they truly want to know Him.


I don't understand the militancy on either side of things.  I've never been one to pick up a picket sign and yell at someone.  I do think that we all should have equality.  Sure, I think everyone would be happier if they believed like me.. you know?  :laugh: But I think that is being a little presumptuous and arrogant to think that is reality.

All that to say... I'm not totally clear on how I feel about it all.  It is a hard subject for me in my world-- I wish it was an easier topic.

Phew!  You asked our opinion Kenny! :)

[Rico]

Interesting points Rick.  The bottom line for me on this subject and many others is does this impact me or others in a negative way?  My answer is no.  Therefore I have no problem with it.  I don't want anyone dictating my life to me and therefore I won't decide how others should live their lives.  Simple as that.

[X]

Great post Rick! I spent two hours on the phone with my friend last night discussing everything from the concept of original sin, the trinity, and homosexuality in the bible. He fall on the more intolerant side of the spectrum. He believes in the literal word of the bible and everything that goes with it. In the end, we could only agree to disagree. While he see this as a sign of the coming end days, I feel that when all things are said and done, everything will be figured out in the end.

I respect the depths of his faith even if I don't agree with his methods and he respects that I'm willing to go to hell for my beliefs, but also feels sorry for me because he thinks I'm missing the answers. 

You put a lot of what we talked about into words perfectly and falls somewhere in the middle of that. I question any and everything and to him all answers begin and end with Jesus. It's like the Odd Couple only a lot more vocal and passion tossed around.

His idea is to love the sinner but hate the sin. My idea is more love the person and let God decide exactly what a sin is, I don't have the moral authority to do so.

But you did address a go deal of my own questions and I love how you suggest, not told, that if there is a chance something is true then you should do the research. If I have said anything that might have offended I am sorry. If I have used scripture out of context and in an offensive way, I also apologize for that. When I have an idea about something, I look for means to support it and I like others that haven't studied the Bible might (and more that likely is) be messing up the lessons that is being offered.

[billybob476]

I've already made my points (even though they are substantially less eloquent then others), but I just want to interject and say that as usual, I am very impressed with the intelligence and maturity of this community. It is so very easy to degenerate into name calling and attacks on individuals and their beliefs.

As I said in my previous posts, blind devotion to a belief is easier then frank and open discussion about it and I'm glad we are big enough to discuss such a hot topic in a constructive manner.

[The IC]

Congrats Kenny.

48 states to go!

[Jen]

The way you guys are handling this topic is admirable and a very big reason why I continue to frequent these boards.

That being said, I agree with Rick. Especially when he said this: "I don't understand the militancy on either side of things.  I've never been one to pick up a picket sign and yell at someone. I do think that we all should have equality.  Sure, I think everyone would be happier if they believed like me.. you know?  But I think that is being a little presumptuous and arrogant to think that is reality. All that to say... I'm not totally clear on how I feel about it all.  It is a hard subject for me in my world-- I wish it was an easier topic."

As some of you know, I am a Christian too. My mother taught many things but some of the things Jesus said have stuck with me the longest.  The Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and  "Love one another as I have Loved you. " She also taught me this: "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "he who is without sin cast the first stone". The first passage above, means that no one individual has the right to point a bony finger in condemnation and anyone one else. The second means that I am not a better or more worthy than other people. It ticks me off when the loudest most obnoxious people speak in behalf of Christians. They are not the majority but they get the most face time. I don't hate people... I was taught that "hate" was a bad word and I got my mouth washed out with soap for saying it, especially when I told brother or sister, in anger, that "I hated them". It contradicts "love one another as I have loved you." He reached out to everyone: people with Leprosy, prostitutes, tax collectors... the people that folks back then considered the bottom of the barrel and were wrong about. Jesus loved them all and risked his live to make a connection with them.

I believe in His teachings and I try to apply them to my life, which I fail to do more often than not. No one is capable of ever being perfect... and no one is above anyone else. That being said, I consider Kenny a close friend and like Rick, see more similarities than differences between us. I'm going to be honest and admit that I am not sure what I believe as far as gay marriage is concerned. But I can say that I believe that everyone has the right to happiness and equal rights as long as it's not at the expense of anyone else's rights. I wish you well Kenny.

[Meds]

Oh i love this forum. Never have i met such people who are able to debate, converse and differ in such an intelligent and friendly way. You all should be proud. I as i said earlier in this post I will always maintain that happiness is the most important thing in life. If i make my partner happy, my friends happy, my family happy then i make myself happy. If happiness is brought on by loving someone that much that you want to be married to them then what more could you ask for.

[Bryancd]

I just wanted to bump this thread in case anyone wants to continue the discussion on same sex marriage. It's a tough subject as it combines religion and politics and makes for a real barn burner. It's funny, the older I get and the more same sex couples I know personally and professionally, the more accommodate my thinking becomes. But I don't have a strong Christian upbringing. We are terrible, non practicing Anglicans. Sometimes I regret that, but it is who I am.

[Meds]

'Terrible Anglicans?????? Damn the workings of the Church of England' I don't understand why you regret being non practicing Bryan. If you don't practice it means you do not believe, its nothing to regret. I always say believe what you want but always remember the bible is a book, a transcript passed over many translations. Wouldn't it be amazing to see what the original scriptures were and compare them to the ones now.
My Mum and Dad had me christened when i was younger, my Mum goes to a United Reform Church and i was married at a UFC, but as you all know I am not religious. Am i being hypocritical, well no. My wife is religious and we have many conversations regarding her beliefs and my own. I live however in a Christian country and i abide by Christian law, so i uphold those beliefs. When the minister asked me if i minded saying the Christian vows for my wedding i said "Of course not", it makes no difference to me, i won't say to anyone do not believe because i have no right to dictate. That is the trouble with some religions, dictatorship. It is becoming apparent (in England anyway) that certain religions are aiming to control the world, now that's not on is it?
I'm not saying that I don't believe there was a young man called Jesus who preached good will because i do believe that but i don't believe the mythological writings eg immaculate conception, miracles and of course the world being made very quickly, come on dinosaurs were around).
Now I for one admire Rick, i think his method of preaching is the ideal way of preaching. He is fun, full of enjoyment and love and expresses his beliefs with an open heart. Maybe if we had many more Ricks in churches people would go more. Is it wrong to go to a church just to relax and enjoy the warmth of hospitality, I hope not, because the way i think, if a homosexual person needed help, advice or just a shoulder to cry on would a place that opens its arms to the needy be the ideal place to go. Here is my point, would you turn Kenny away if he came to your church in need of help (I don't mean religious), would you turn a gay man or woman away from the pouring rain, a storm, a hurricane? That's the question. If you were to say "Yes i would turn a gay person away from this building in an hour of need" then I'm afraid if there is a heaven you ain't getting in, because to turn your back, turn someone away in an hour of need is the biggest sin of all.
Just my opinion guys, remember that.

[X]

For me, the question of same sex marriages revolve about one personal question.

Would I like my children to grow up to marry the person of their choice?

I don't know what sexuality my children will be. I don't care one way or another as long as they are happy. What I do care about is that if I don't fight for these rights, these simple liberties that are not solely based in religion, they might be denied when they are older.

I'm not some selfless person. I fight and argue for equality because it might one day affect my children's choices.

I put money away for their future school. I vote in elections to give them a better future.

I am too selfish to let someone deny MY children rights, even if the odds are for them being straight.

I am too selfish to allow revisionist history to change marriage into something it never was. Marriage wasn't only man and woman. It was and is a ever changing thing that started off as a simple too for men to control women and deny them a choice.

I am tired of groups of people thinking that they have some divine right to claim when and how certain words are being used and who can use them. I think that because of my background I can see things that are missed by some people.

Take the N-Word. Some people don't want anyone to use it because of it's history. Some people feel that they have a right to use it among their specific group because they had a long history with the word. Some people feel that if it's okay for one group to use it in a non-hurtful way then every group should be able to use it freely.

It's a stupid debate that has to do more with feeling entitled and special. To be able to get away with something that would be offensive if others did it.

Substitute the M-Word for the N-word and you have yet another reason why this is a silly debate. One group should not have exclusive rights to the use of a word even if they are generous enough to agree that the people that want to get married should have legal protections.

[billybob476]

Hey X, I'm interested in some specific examples where same sex marriage was allowed in history. Not because I don't believe you, but for my own knowledge. It's a powerful argument.

[X]

here are a few sources:

Suetonius Life of Nero 28-29; Martial Epigrams 1.24, 12.42; etc.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20464004/
http://www.enotalone.com/article/4358.html

There are a lot of history books out there that talk about early marriage and how it's changed. Each are worth a read.


Also there are other points So, here is my link crazy post:

http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/pros_cons/gaymarriage/gaymarriagefull.html

[Geekyfanboy]

We are losing the battle guys.. Proposition 8 (constitutional gay marriage ban in CA) is gaining steam. It's so depressing to know that a majority of people out there want to take away our civil rights as human beings. The attack ads on TV are horrible and make the gay community sound like child molestors and monsters. I walked out my front door a few days ago and the neighbors across the street have these huge signs "Yes on Prop 8" in their front yard.. so everyday I'm reminded of the hatered.

I know the majority of you here don't believe I have the right to be legally married but there are a few of you who do and I just wanted to vent to you guys my frustration. Thank.. now back to my happy geeky self. :)

[billybob476]

I'm sorry and upset to hear this Kenny. If there's anything I can do (not being a CA resident) please let me know.

[Geekyfanboy]

Thanks Billybob.. will find out in 18 days..