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Crew Lounge => Conversations => Topic started by: Geekyfanboy on June 16, 2008, 10:57:43 PM

Title: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on June 16, 2008, 10:57:43 PM
At 5:01pm today Marriage between a same sex couple is now legal in California. We are only the second state in the U.S. to recognize same sex couples. The cool thing that is different between Massachusetts and California is that California doesn't require residence. So I expect thousands of gay couples will be making there way to CA to get married... going to be good for our economy. It's been a long hard road and though we may have won this battle the fight continues... We still have one more hurdle to cross as come November the voters of CA will get to vote and see if we can keep these rights or ban it once again.

I know there are people out there who are not happy with this ruling and I'm sure there are folks on this forum who feel that gay marriage is wrong. And you have every right to your opinion. If you wish to discuss it in a mature manner I am up for a debate.

Until then... WHOOOO HOOOOO I'm gonna get married  :biggrin
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Rico on June 17, 2008, 04:59:55 AM
Kenny - congrats!  I personally see nothing wrong with this between two consenting adults.  I am curious about one thing.  After the marriage for you will you be filing taxes as married?  Does the Federal government recognize it too?  And what happens if the voters vote to overturn it?  Which I doubt will happen.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 05:06:08 AM
Wasn't it a voter action which repealed this a few years ago when it was first enacted? I could have sworn we discussed that here. And that's a great question, Rico, as to whether or not the Federal Government acknowledges the rights of a married couple. I have always been in favor of legal civil unions granting same sex couples the opportunity to enjoy all the legal benefits of a married couple.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: billybob476 on June 17, 2008, 05:40:42 AM
I think it's great and it's about time. I'm really happy for you Kenny.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: jedijeff on June 17, 2008, 07:39:04 AM
Congrats Kenny, all the best, and I agree with the others, it will be nice that you can take advantage of the legal benefits.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on June 17, 2008, 07:47:42 AM
Quote from: Rico on June 17, 2008, 04:59:55 AM
Kenny - congrats!  I personally see nothing wrong with this between two consenting adults.  I am curious about one thing.  After the marriage for you will you be filing taxes as married?  Does the Federal government recognize it too?  And what happens if the voters vote to overturn it?  Which I doubt will happen.

No unfortunately the Federal Government doesn't recognize the marriage, this is stickily state level. In 92 the Federal Government enacted the marriage act and it states that a marriage is between a man and a woman, which trumpet all state laws. If the voters overturn it then we battle again to get it deemed unconstitutional.

Quote from: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 05:06:08 AM
Wasn't it a voter action which repealed this a few years ago when it was first enacted? I could have sworn we discussed that here. And that's a great question, Rico, as to whether or not the Federal Government acknowledges the rights of a married couple. I have always been in favor of legal civil unions granting same sex couples the opportunity to enjoy all the legal benefits of a married couple.

Many years ago the CA voters voted to amend the CA Constitution to include the words that a marriage is between a man and a woman thus banning gay marriages. 22 other states have such bans. This November they are going to try it again..
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Meds on June 17, 2008, 10:18:30 AM
Congrats Kenny. It's about time gay marriage was allowed. Yay for you and Harry getting married. I've never understood why people get all het up over stuff like this. At the end of the day surely the meaning of life is to be happy. And if you are in love with someone, same sex or opposite then that's got to be the most important thing in the world. Will raise a glass of champers to you on your big day mate.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: billybob476 on June 17, 2008, 10:38:05 AM
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on June 17, 2008, 10:18:30 AM
Congrats Kenny. It's about time gay marriage was allowed. Yay for you and Harry getting married. I've never understood why people get all het up over stuff like this. At the end of the day surely the meaning of life is to be happy. And if you are in love with someone, same sex or opposite then that's got to be the most important thing in the world. Will raise a glass of champers to you on your big day mate.

While I fully support gay marriage, I can see why people would be against it. In my opinion it comes down to this: People have deep-seated beliefs, it's much easier to blindly support those beliefs then to question them. From a fundamentally Catholic point of view the old testament (I think) says marriage is between a man and a woman and that being gay is wrong. If that is what a person was brought up believing, it's very easy for that person to blindly support that point of view. Logically, it makes no sense but that's what has been drilled into him/her so they believe it.

Again, that is not what I believe, just a possible counterpoint.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 10:52:57 AM
Quote from: billybob476 on June 17, 2008, 10:38:05 AM
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on June 17, 2008, 10:18:30 AM
Congrats Kenny. It's about time gay marriage was allowed. Yay for you and Harry getting married. I've never understood why people get all het up over stuff like this. At the end of the day surely the meaning of life is to be happy. And if you are in love with someone, same sex or opposite then that's got to be the most important thing in the world. Will raise a glass of champers to you on your big day mate.

While I fully support gay marriage, I can see why people would be against it. In my opinion it comes down to this: People have deep-seated beliefs, it's much easier to blindly support those beliefs then to question them. From a fundamentally Catholic point of view the old testament (I think) says marriage is between a man and a woman and that being gay is wrong. If that is what a person was brought up believing, it's very easy for that person to blindly support that point of view. Logically, it makes no sense but that's what has been drilled into him/her so they believe it.

Again, that is not what I believe, just a possible counterpoint.

Right, and though I am non-practicing Christian, I can see the valididty of that side of the argument. If Marriage is a religous ceremony, than I can see why those that practice a religion which does not allow for same sex unions would be against it.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Blackride on June 17, 2008, 12:39:37 PM
Quote from: billybob476 on June 17, 2008, 10:38:05 AM
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on June 17, 2008, 10:18:30 AM
Congrats Kenny. It's about time gay marriage was allowed. Yay for you and Harry getting married. I've never understood why people get all het up over stuff like this. At the end of the day surely the meaning of life is to be happy. And if you are in love with someone, same sex or opposite then that's got to be the most important thing in the world. Will raise a glass of champers to you on your big day mate.

While I fully support gay marriage, I can see why people would be against it. In my opinion it comes down to this: People have deep-seated beliefs, it's much easier to blindly support those beliefs then to question them. From a fundamentally Catholic point of view the old testament (I think) says marriage is between a man and a woman and that being gay is wrong. If that is what a person was brought up believing, it's very easy for that person to blindly support that point of view. Logically, it makes no sense but that's what has been drilled into him/her so they believe it.

Again, that is not what I believe, just a possible counterpoint.

Kinda a big assumption to think that people that are anti-gay/marriage are following things blindly, isn't? That's saying that all those people can't think for themselves. Does that mean that all religious people are following everything blindly because they "believe"?

I don't agree with that. Maybe I am just not reading your post correctly, which I am know to do.

Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: billybob476 on June 17, 2008, 12:44:41 PM
Quote from: Blackride on June 17, 2008, 12:39:37 PM
Quote from: billybob476 on June 17, 2008, 10:38:05 AM
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on June 17, 2008, 10:18:30 AM
Congrats Kenny. It's about time gay marriage was allowed. Yay for you and Harry getting married. I've never understood why people get all het up over stuff like this. At the end of the day surely the meaning of life is to be happy. And if you are in love with someone, same sex or opposite then that's got to be the most important thing in the world. Will raise a glass of champers to you on your big day mate.

While I fully support gay marriage, I can see why people would be against it. In my opinion it comes down to this: People have deep-seated beliefs, it's much easier to blindly support those beliefs then to question them. From a fundamentally Catholic point of view the old testament (I think) says marriage is between a man and a woman and that being gay is wrong. If that is what a person was brought up believing, it's very easy for that person to blindly support that point of view. Logically, it makes no sense but that's what has been drilled into him/her so they believe it.

Again, that is not what I believe, just a possible counterpoint.

Kinda a big assumption to think that people that are anti-gay/marriage are following things blindly, isn't? That's saying that all those people can't think for themselves. Does that mean that all religious people are following everything blindly because they "believe"?

I don't agree with that. Maybe I am just not reading your post correctly, which I am know to do.



As I said, just a possible counterpoint. In no way do I mean that all people who are against gay marriage are being blind, but I'm sure there are those that are. Basically I am just trying to say that it's easier to be intolerant then to try and understand a differing viewpoint.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on June 17, 2008, 12:51:59 PM
I don't think billybob meant anything offense by his statement. If I understood it..  Parents raise there kids as they were raised and then there kids pass on their beliefs to their kids.. an so on.. it's all they know.

All I have to say is hatered is taught.. you are not born hating people.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: billybob476 on June 17, 2008, 01:00:44 PM
Right on Kenny.

I have been known to be less then clear in my statements sometimes. I used religion as an example but it can really be any kind of belief.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on June 17, 2008, 01:11:32 PM
See my problem is that people that say that marriage is between a man and a woman and then uses the bible for reference that it is a religious ceremony seems to miss that part in genesis where I believe Job calls the men that are scheduled to marry his daughters as Sons-in-law. To me this implies that it has always been a legal contract and let's face it. Marriage has never been an unchanging tradition.

In the beginnings men could marry as many women as they wanted and the women had little say in the matter.

It then progressed to where one many had to pay another many to marry his daughter.

Then we get to other issues where in England during the middle ages, a man could rape a woman and if he didn't marry her, he went to jail. She didn't have much choice on the matter.

Marriage has never been a traditional thing and to claim that the reason to protect it seems kind of ignorant of history.

To say it was religious also causes issue with me.

Adam and Eve were never married. There was no ceremony that I recalled reading and God called her his mate. Not wife. People want to imply that they were married because God gave her to Adam, but you can imply a lot of things in the bible and it still doesn't make it true.

If we look at history as a source of traditional marriage, there were dozens of cultures that allowed same sex marriage for quite a long time.

Lastly, I don't see how anyone can vote to deny any other group of people rights. I don't think that rights should be put to vote for anyone because that is a very good way to keep any minority oppressed.

The thought of amending the constitution to exclude someone else flies in the face of everything this country was founded on. All men were created EQUAL and everyone is entitled to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. EVERYONE.

Not just people you like or lifestyles that you agree with.

There are people that like to press the panic button and say that if gays can get married then what else will we allow.

My concern is that if we start allowing or denying a person rights due to popular vote, who else will get oppressed once that precedent is established?

This is something that my wife and I have talked about and she actually wrote something on it and did a lot of research on the subject. I'll link it because she can point you to a lot of the history regarding traditional marriages.

http://hubpages.com/hub/We-are-no-longer-alone?utm_source=emailhub&utm_campaign=evite&utm_medium=email (http://hubpages.com/hub/We-are-no-longer-alone?utm_source=emailhub&utm_campaign=evite&utm_medium=email)
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Blackride on June 17, 2008, 01:35:41 PM
Based on peoples arguments, Polgmy should be also allowed. It's is the same reasoning.

I also think people need to be very carefull on this topic. Just because someone does not believe in gay marriage does not mean they hate gay people. That is a giant leap to me that is dangerous.....

Just my opinion all and please note that I never once said which side of the fence I am on this. I like to listen to peoples thoughts and poke and prode :)
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Meds on June 17, 2008, 01:43:47 PM
OOOO poking and prodding now thats a total different topic ha ha.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on June 17, 2008, 01:53:05 PM
Quote from: Blackride on June 17, 2008, 01:35:41 PM
Based on peoples arguments, Polgmy should be also allowed. It's is the same reasoning.

I also think people need to be very carefull on this topic. Just because someone does not believe in gay marriage does not mean they hate gay people. That is a giant leap to me that is dangerous.....

Just my opinion all and please note that I never once said which side of the fence I am on this. I like to listen to peoples thoughts and poke and prode :)

I don't see anything wrong with polygamy as long as it's consenting adults involved. If a woman wants to marry six guys and another woman, so be it. My issues would only be with people that had several wives or husbands and several households, but those people that they were married to wasn't aware of the other spouses.

If all parties involved are aware, I don't see a problem. I don't care was other consenting adults do in their bedrooms. I don't care how they setup their families and hope that they find something that works for them.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on June 17, 2008, 02:22:33 PM
'We are going to get our marriage license today'

Same-sex couples hit county offices and start tying the knot

By Tony Castro, Staff Writer

Article Last Updated: 06/17/2008 12:49:36 PM PDT

WEST HOLLYWOOD - As Mr. Sulu on "Star Trek," George Takei's fantasy mission on the "Starship Enterprise" was "to boldly go where no man has gone before."

This morning, the 71-year-old actor literally went where no man had legally been, at least in California. He and his partner of 21 years, Brad Altman, applied for a marriage license.

Takei was the highest profile person among the thousands of gay and lesbian couples who applied for marriage licenses on the first day allowed under last month's California Supreme Court decision knocking down the state's ban on same-sex marriages.

"Isn't this a glorious California morning to make history?" Takei told reporters in West Hollywood this morning. "Last month, the California Supreme Court made history by ruling for equality in marriage, and this morning, we're all here to give flesh and blood reality to that ruling. We're going to make history.

"And I think of the words of a great man who made history himself. Mahatma Ghandi said, `Be the change you want.' And what I see before me are people who are the change for equality. Equality in marriage and equality in everything.

"I see before me people who personify love and commitment. I see people who are the personifications, the joy and celebration, and Brad Altman and I are going to join you, and we are going to get our marriage license today. Isn't that extraordinary and it's that wonderful?"

Both Takei and Altman then raised their arms, their fingers spread in the "Vulcan peace sign" popularized by Leonard Nimoy's Spock character on "Star Trek."

Their appearance was cheered on by well-wishers, onlookers and a throng of news media fitting of a Hollywood red carpet. Nearby, several hundred couples stood in line, some camping out since shortly after midnight to be among the first-day marriage license recipients.

Takei and Altman were the first to receive a marriage license at the West Hollywood satellite office set up by the county. They set Sept. 14 as their wedding date.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Blackride on June 17, 2008, 02:34:55 PM
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on June 17, 2008, 01:43:47 PM
OOOO poking and prodding now thats a total different topic ha ha.

Ha Ha.....I was waiting for that :)
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on June 17, 2008, 03:40:54 PM
Quote from: billybob476 on June 17, 2008, 10:38:05 AM
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on June 17, 2008, 10:18:30 AM
Congrats Kenny. It's about time gay marriage was allowed. Yay for you and Harry getting married. I've never understood why people get all het up over stuff like this. At the end of the day surely the meaning of life is to be happy. And if you are in love with someone, same sex or opposite then that's got to be the most important thing in the world. Will raise a glass of champers to you on your big day mate.

While I fully support gay marriage, I can see why people would be against it. In my opinion it comes down to this: People have deep-seated beliefs, it's much easier to blindly support those beliefs then to question them. From a fundamentally Catholic point of view the old testament (I think) says marriage is between a man and a woman and that being gay is wrong. If that is what a person was brought up believing, it's very easy for that person to blindly support that point of view. Logically, it makes no sense but that's what has been drilled into him/her so they believe it.

Again, that is not what I believe, just a possible counterpoint.

Now, I'm against this whole deal.  I'm not against Kenny specifically, but my beliefs contradict what California is doing.  It is not blind belief that I believe Gay marriage is wrong.  I have questioned many things that I believe.  (Lord knows these past few months have seen to that).  I've kept from replying until now. 

Do I curse Kenny and all others for doing this? 
The answer is: No. 
1.  If I curse ppl that do this, then I should curse myself because I know I deserve it.  "Doing one sin convicts you of ALL sins".  I sin, I know it and ask God for forgiveness.  Cursing would be a sin so...yea, I hope you get what I mean. :)
2.  Even if I criticized ppl and wouldn't talk to ppl because they do this, would it stop them?  No.  It is America after all.  Land of Freedom and such.  If you choose this, then it is entirely up to you.  I can be just as much against it, as Kenny has as much right doing it. 

I'm against it, but I'm not.....whats the word......a zealous righteous dirtbag about it. 

I hope the best for you Kenny.  And hope that you see what I'm saying.  :)  And that we can still be friends. 

King

P.S. Be happy I'm not my youngest brother.  He has a much...different attitude about it.  and my grandmother.  I guess I am liberal in a way.....*shudder* ;)
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Yeoman Mara on June 17, 2008, 03:45:28 PM
Warm wishes to you Kenny and your partner.  Go for it!  :)
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on June 17, 2008, 03:52:17 PM
Quote from: Kinglinksr on June 17, 2008, 03:40:54 PM

I'm against, but I'm not.....whats the word......a zealous righteous dirtbag about it. 

Tim, I get what you're saying, but if you don't mind me asking, why are you against it?

I know the 'Company Line' when it comes to the vocal protesters of same-sex marriage, but as a whole, these views fail to hold water when placed under a magnifying glass.

What I mean to ask, is:

Do you have specific reason why same-sex marriage should not be allowed?

As Kenny has heard me rant in private on this subject on several occasions, it is one that I also happily enjoy engaging others in a health debate.

There is a slim chance that views would be changed in such debates, but I think it helps me as a person to understand how and why people choose a view and what they use to support it.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 04:25:11 PM
X I appreciate your argument as to why a case can be made that a "marriage" is not a religious ceremony, but really that's sort of equivocating. The common perception, regardless of historical precedents that may seem to the contrary, is that it is a ceremony presided over by a member of the clergy in a house of worship. Certainly there are other popular ways to "get married" that include neither of these but that would be the most common definition of a "wedding".

Kenny, I know we have discussed this before but I don't recall your view on this aspect of the debate. Are you and Harry interested in having a ceremony where you profess your love and commitment to each other before those you care for and who love you as well as the rights and privileges afforded by the state and federal government, or are do you want to be joined "in the eye's of God" in a religious ceremony? I suppose that's where the difference may lie. I have two gay clients who had a beautiful "Union of Souls" ceremony in Philadelphia a few years ago where they read prepared vows of commitment and exchanged rings before all their friends and family. It was one o the best "wedding" I have been to but had non of the religious trappings. This was by design as Jim was raised Catholic and didn't think it was appropriate.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on June 17, 2008, 04:41:10 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 04:25:11 PM
Kenny, I know we have discussed this before but I don't recall your view on this aspect of the debate. Are you and Harry interested in having a ceremony where you profess your love and commitment to each other before those you care for and who love you as well as the rights and privileges afforded by the state and federal government, or are do you want to be joined "in the eye's of God" in a religious ceremony? I suppose that's where the difference may lie. I have two gay clients who had a beautiful "Union of Souls" ceremony in Philadelphia a few years ago where they read prepared vows of commitment and exchanged rings before all their friends and family. It was one o the best "wedding" I have been to but had non of the religious trappings. This was by design as Jim was raised Catholic and didn't think it was appropriate.

Neither Harry nor I are religious, Harry is a non practicing Catholic. We are doing the ceremony to profess our love and commitment to each other before those we care for and who love us. We planned the ceremony way before the ban on gay marriages was lifted. 
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 04:46:08 PM
Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on June 17, 2008, 04:41:10 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 04:25:11 PM
Kenny, I know we have discussed this before but I don't recall your view on this aspect of the debate. Are you and Harry interested in having a ceremony where you profess your love and commitment to each other before those you care for and who love you as well as the rights and privileges afforded by the state and federal government, or are do you want to be joined "in the eye's of God" in a religious ceremony? I suppose that's where the difference may lie. I have two gay clients who had a beautiful "Union of Souls" ceremony in Philadelphia a few years ago where they read prepared vows of commitment and exchanged rings before all their friends and family. It was one o the best "wedding" I have been to but had non of the religious trappings. This was by design as Jim was raised Catholic and didn't think it was appropriate.

Neither Harry nor I are religious, Harry is a non practicing Catholic. We are doing the ceremony to profess our love and commitment to each other before those we care for and who love us. We planned the ceremony way before the ban on gay marriages was lifted. 

Exactly, so if the State of California said that same sex couples could have a civil union and recognize them with the same "rights" as married couples, you guys would be perfectly content, yes? This would mollify a lot of the opposition.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Omra on June 17, 2008, 04:48:19 PM
My stance when it comes to 'Gay Rights' of any kind, is much the same as my stance when it comes to any Minority Group.  Equal rights, and the ability to have a safe and constructive life free of persecution.

It is when a group seeks 'Protective Status' that I object, I do not believe that any race, religion or 'Lifestyle' deserves special treatment.  Only Equal treatment.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on June 17, 2008, 04:54:39 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 04:46:08 PM
Exactly, so if the State of California said that same sex couples could have a civil union and recognize them with the same "rights" as married couples, you guys would be perfectly content, yes? This would mollify a lot of the opposition.

I've heard this before and while it's good in a separate but equal aspect. Would a gay couple get fined or go to jail of they call their union a marriage? How do you enforce the use of the word?

I'm a logical person and if you give a civil union the exact weight and benefits marriage, why not call it a marriage? If it looks like a duck...

Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on June 17, 2008, 04:56:50 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 04:46:08 PM
Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on June 17, 2008, 04:41:10 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 04:25:11 PM
Kenny, I know we have discussed this before but I don't recall your view on this aspect of the debate. Are you and Harry interested in having a ceremony where you profess your love and commitment to each other before those you care for and who love you as well as the rights and privileges afforded by the state and federal government, or are do you want to be joined "in the eye's of God" in a religious ceremony? I suppose that's where the difference may lie. I have two gay clients who had a beautiful "Union of Souls" ceremony in Philadelphia a few years ago where they read prepared vows of commitment and exchanged rings before all their friends and family. It was one o the best "wedding" I have been to but had non of the religious trappings. This was by design as Jim was raised Catholic and didn't think it was appropriate.

Neither Harry nor I are religious, Harry is a non practicing Catholic. We are doing the ceremony to profess our love and commitment to each other before those we care for and who love us. We planned the ceremony way before the ban on gay marriages was lifted. 

Exactly, so if the State of California said that same sex couples could have a civil union and recognize them with the same "rights" as married couples, you guys would be perfectly content, yes? This would mollify a lot of the opposition.

No we wouldn't be content, why do "straight" couples get to use the tern wedding and marriage but "gay" couple have to use ceremony and civil unions.  Why should there be any difference in the terminology.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Darkmolerman on June 17, 2008, 05:04:40 PM
Wow congrats Kenny and lucky Harry I hope you have a wonderful life together
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 05:08:15 PM

Because the terminology IS the issue for both sides. If you accept the premise that a "wedding" or "marriage" is a religious ceremony, you will now need to have the Bible changed in the eyes of the Catholic Church potentially. I think a little compromise can go a long way here.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on June 17, 2008, 05:15:48 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 05:08:15 PM

Because the terminology IS the issue for both sides. If you accept the premise that a "wedding" or "marriage" is a religious ceremony, you will now need to have the Bible changed in the eyes of the Catholic Church potentially. I think a little compromise can go a long way here.

Why should I have to compromise on something that every person has the right too? If you make a distinction between marriage and civil union then it tells people that we don't have the same rights and that we are different... which we are not.. my love for Harry is the same as your love for your wife... why do I need to compromise?
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 05:21:10 PM
Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on June 17, 2008, 05:15:48 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 05:08:15 PM

Because the terminology IS the issue for both sides. If you accept the premise that a "wedding" or "marriage" is a religious ceremony, you will now need to have the Bible changed in the eyes of the Catholic Church potentially. I think a little compromise can go a long way here.

Why should I have to compromise on something that every person has the right too? If you make a distinction between marriage and civil union then it tells people that we don't have the same rights and that we are different... which we are not.. my love for Harry is the same as your love for your wife... why do I need to compromise?

I don't think you should, the Catholic Church apparently does. THAT'S where your fight is. Your argument is not with the state or federal government, it's with the Vatican. You don't have to compromise BUT I for one would think the state and federal recognition of civil unions would be a major step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on June 17, 2008, 05:28:14 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 05:08:15 PM

Because the terminology IS the issue for both sides. If you accept the premise that a "wedding" or "marriage" is a religious ceremony, you will now need to have the Bible changed in the eyes of the Catholic Church potentially. I think a little compromise can go a long way here.
If we are to accept the Catholic Church as the authority on marriage, then none but Catholics would be able to use the term marriage. Even then, granted I don't have a bible on me, I believe the bible also says that you can only marry someone that also believes in God and can't be of another tribe.

That being said, there would be a lot less people married if we decide to go on one religion's definition of marriage. If we go for ALL religion's definition of marriage, then Same-sex marriage would qualify because there are faiths out there that allow it.

Also, as far as I know. In all US States, marriage is civil. You can have priest or ministers conduct vows until the cows come home, but in the eyes of the US, that doesn't make it a marriage. Signing the marriage certificate is what makes it a marriage. Religion in the US has little to nothing to do with Marriage.

Can you get married without being wed by someone religious? Yes, you can do it several ways, the largest percentage of that being a Justice of the Peace.

Can you have religious wedding and not be married? Yes. You can get married in a church to forty different people and it won't count until you file a little piece of paper that says you are married.

The longest tradition for marriage in the US actually is a civil contract that is in the laws of the state of Mass. The courts there have ruled that it does not limit marriage based on gender.

So in a nutshell you have two things:

1) Marriage has been a civil institution in this country since before it became a country.
2) Same-sex marriages have been legal since that first draft and only now taking place.

For me it's a pretty simple case of not letting ANY religion dictate what a word should be and to let a single religion define marriage is an insult to anyone not of that religion and wanting to be married.

So I guess I just don't accept that marriage is a religious thing. I think that religion has co-opted a lot of it, but then again anything that had a chance of putting coin into the coffers of the early church was welcomed whole heartedly.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 05:38:59 PM
I agree 100% and I for one think Harry would look awesome in white......;)


I'm just trying to identify the issue and find a way forward.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on June 17, 2008, 05:39:40 PM
Quote from: Just X on June 17, 2008, 03:52:17 PM
Quote from: Kinglinksr on June 17, 2008, 03:40:54 PM

I'm against, but I'm not.....whats the word......a zealous righteous dirtbag about it. 

Tim, I get what you're saying, but if you don't mind me asking, why are you against it?

I know the 'Company Line' when it comes to the vocal protesters of same-sex marriage, but as a whole, these views fail to hold water when placed under a magnifying glass.

What I mean to ask, is:

Do you have specific reason why same-sex marriage should not be allowed?

As Kenny has heard me rant in private on this subject on several occasions, it is one that I also happily enjoy engaging others in a health debate.

There is a slim chance that views would be changed in such debates, but I think it helps me as a person to understand how and why people choose a view and what they use to support it.

I will answer this after dinner.  I'd do it right now, but my Mother wants to kill me with her eyes. :(

King
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on June 17, 2008, 05:50:14 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 05:38:59 PM
I'm just trying to identify the issue and find a way forward.

I think that the issue is pretty simple. There are people that think marriage and the universe has only one right way and it is there way. If you don't agree, that's your problem and things shouldn't have to change because you don't agree.

To support their views, they take a very myopic slice of history and claim it as truth while deciding anything against that view point is heresy or an attempt a evil to gain a greater foothold in the world.

I can't speak for everyone's views, but I have a close friend that believe in a lot of things that science and history would contradict and he justifies his views by putting it under a banner of the work of evil trying to corrupt the morals of righteous men or man trying to discount the works of God.

Using him as a basis for my theory, I see that the issue is that many of the people that agree with his views also think that the acceptance of same-sex marriage is an attack on them and the moral foundation of humanity.

There can't be a compromise when a nice chunk of the people refuse to even accept the fundamental truths about homosexuality. There also shouldn't be a need to compromise.

If you are fighting gay marriage on the ground of religion, then what will happen when you lose that fight? If your church implodes into flames because of a word, is it the word that caused the problem or is it in the religion where the problem resides?
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on June 17, 2008, 05:56:31 PM
Oh and just to clarify, I am not trying to wave a banner for gay rights, straight rights, women's rights, men's right, or any other specific right. I am waving a flag for equal rights for all people.

When I became a parent, I realized how important equal rights were. I don't know what my children are going to grow up to be. I don't know what sexual orientation they are going to have.

What I do know is that when I became a father I swore to myself and my children that I would do all that I could to give them a good life. If they grow up and want to get married. They should have that option and not be restricted to what some people want to define marriage as. They should be entitled to the same emotional roller coaster that marriage can cause any couple. They should have a chance to be happy and when I became a parent, I swore to give them that.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on June 17, 2008, 06:26:53 PM
Ok, being honest here, I have no facts to say WHY this is wrong. 

My belief in Gay-marriage being wrong comes from my being a Christian and what the Bible says and probably part from my parents feeling on the subject.  I have no..."oh you'll die 20 years sooner" or "you'll get aids 10 times more likely".  Its just pure Religious and Personal opinion. 

Which I can have.  Yes, this would partially make me "blind" to my "hatred" or "disagreement" of gay marriage.  I suppose just to me it feels wrong.  No, I'm not saying that Kenny is "wrong" in some biological/mental way, but I'm just saying that the act of marriage to me should be between a man and a woman.  I've also had the opinion that it could potentially "mess-up" children.  HOWEVER, considering today's youth, how the hell can we judge them.  I'd say there is an equal or possibly better chance that these kids will grow up into normal healthy human beings.  (By normal, I mean non-alcoholics, non-drug addicts, etc)

So in a long-winded really-odd way of saying it, my opinions of disliking Gay Marriage come from my personality beliefs and Christian views. 

What can I say, I'm human. :\

King
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on June 17, 2008, 07:02:35 PM
Quote from: Kinglinksr on June 17, 2008, 06:26:53 PM
My belief in Gay-marriage being wrong comes from my being a Christian and what the Bible says and probably part from my parents feeling on the subject.  I have no..."oh you'll die 20 years sooner" or "you'll get aids 10 times more likely".  Its just pure Religious and Personal opinion. 

I can understand this because I am from a very religious family. The problem is I think that I've read the bible more times than any of them combined.

I don't profess to be a theologists, but here is what I read in the bible:

1) Homosexuality was not the sin in Sodom. A sin was never listed in that passage. Some people after the fact assumed it was homosexuality and emphasized that by calling the act sodomy (Gen 13:13). In Ezekiel 16:49 claims the sins of Sodom were pride, gluttony, sloth, greed, and failure to help the poor.

2) In Leviticus it talks about a man laying with another man as a woman being bad. For me this doesn't imply homosexuality, but more a Cry Game situation. In those situation I think that it is very bad.

3) Paul has a lot to say about homosexuality, but then again he also was never a disciple of Jesus or even met the man other than in a vision. Paul had a lot to say about a lot of things, some of them constricted the teaching of Jesus and the words of the disciples. If I were Christian, I think that I would rather put my stock in the guys that actually broke bread with the man.

4) there was a disciple or guy that hung out, half naked with Jesus, then hauled tail out of there naked when Jesus was arrested. (Somehow that fails to make the movies, but I think that it would have been an interesting sight!) Mark 14:51

5) During the last supper, there is a guy that is resting his head on Jesus' chest during the entire meal. (John 13:23) That seems a bit cozy, but Paul then condemns any effeminate behavior in Cor 6:9 - 10.

6) In Samuel 18:1 it talk about how Jonathan and David were soul mates and goes into their relationship.

So for me, and I can't convince anyone to accept my views, but it looks like the bible was mixed at best on the subject. There were a few that spoke out against it, but when you get into two guys being basically soul mates, you have to assume that God had a hand in that. The fact that Jesus nor any of his actual disciples mentioned anything negative about homosexuality speaks volumes especially when his job on Earth was to update the rules and give humanity a new path to follow that was beyond the killing for almost any transgression in the old testament.

Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 07:34:10 PM
The irony of that is the Bible apparently isn't open to anyone interpretation. Odd but true.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on June 17, 2008, 08:04:24 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on June 17, 2008, 07:34:10 PM
The irony of that is the Bible apparently isn't open to anyone interpretation. Odd but true.

Yeah, I noticed that. I'm on the phone with my friend now and we're having that same talk.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on June 17, 2008, 08:20:37 PM
Thank you for King for being honest
Quote from: Kinglinksr on June 17, 2008, 06:26:53 PM
Ok, being honest here, I have no facts to say WHY this is wrong. 

My belief in Gay-marriage being wrong comes from my being a Christian and what the Bible says and probably part from my parents feeling on the subject.  I have no..."oh you'll die 20 years sooner" or "you'll get aids 10 times more likely".  Its just pure Religious and Personal opinion. 

Which I can have.  Yes, this would partially make me "blind" to my "hatred" or "disagreement" of gay marriage.  I suppose just to me it feels wrong.  No, I'm not saying that Kenny is "wrong" in some biological/mental way, but I'm just saying that the act of marriage to me should be between a man and a woman.  I've also had the opinion that it could potentially "mess-up" children.  HOWEVER, considering today's youth, how the hell can we judge them.  I'd say there is an equal or possibly better chance that these kids will grow up into normal healthy human beings.  (By normal, I mean non-alcoholics, non-drug addicts, etc)

So in a long-winded really-odd way of saying it, my opinions of disliking Gay Marriage come from my personality beliefs and Christian views. 

What can I say, I'm human. :\

King

First I want to Thank you for being honest King..that says a lot about your character. I'm sure there are many more folks on this forum who feel the exact same way as you. But I would like to disagree with one thing you did say... that a gay couple would "mess up" their kids. Love is love and that is all children need, regardless if it's two dads, two moms, a mom and a dad or just a mom or dad... we don't love differently.

And just so you know.. I'm human too.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on June 17, 2008, 09:05:49 PM
No no, I said that was my early notion of children and such.  You'll notice I said later that a gay couple has an equal or better chance. 

And your welcome, sometimes, my honesty bites me in the butt.  I keep learning though ;). 

King
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Ktrek on June 17, 2008, 09:47:01 PM
This has been very interesting reading everyone's opinions. For myself I have to break this down to my political view and my religious or moral view.

First, as a Christian I believe that marriage is clearly defined as between a man and a woman and not between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. I also believe it to be against the "natural" order of things. Men cannot procreate with another man or women with women. It's impossible. In the book of Genesis man was commanded to go and repopulate the Earth and if Adam had been a homosexual this could never have happened. If all the population became same sex minded then the inevitable result would be the extinction of humans on the Earth. I do believe the Bible is an "inspired" book. I am not sure that it is "infallible". I do believe that the basic guidance is within it's pages to help one on their quest to know God and who He is and what He expects of us in regards to life and conduct.

Secondly, there is my political belief. I do not see why two gay people, who are in a committed relationship, cannot/should not enjoy the same benefits as heterosexual married couples. This is a "legal" issue and not a "moral" issue as far as I can see. Just because a marriage is recognized between two people of the same sex by the government does not mean that it is recognized by the supreme judge of the universe. So how does it affect me? it does not as far as I can tell.

Where I would have to draw the line will be when homosexuals demand that religious institutions, ones that oppose gay marriage, be forced to perform gay marriages. As long as the gay community is happy with a judge marrying them, or an ordained clergy that supports it, then I am fine with it. Obviously a majority of Christian institutions will not be supportive and actually be opposed to gay marriage and it would be wrong for the gay community to impose itself on their beliefs by forcing, the Catholic Church for example, into performing gay weddings, contrary to their 2000 year old beliefs. Catholics have the right to hold their beliefs, and defend them as necessary, and I will be standing by the side of my Catholic brethren if it comes down to this. Otherwise, I cannot and would not stand in the way of Kenny and Harry getting married. That is their right and their decision and I think the law stands beside them even if the Church cannot.

Kevin
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Meds on June 17, 2008, 10:31:02 PM
I'll just repeat what i said earlier. Love is love. We live in a modern age, times change and for the better.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: moyer777 on June 17, 2008, 10:45:29 PM
Well, I'm busy for a day, come back and wow a very interesting conversation!

Kevin and all, I have appreciated the civility of the discussion.--

WARNING... I don't usually talk a lot about my faith in a strong way on this forum, but I am going to say a few things here.  I'm only doing it to put things in context.  Feel free to skip this post if you are offended by overtly religious or Christian references. Forgive me, after all -I am a preacher. :)

I'm a bit hesitant to even offer my opinion because there is a bit of stereotyping being done here, and not that I blame anyone, as a Christian my fellow believers range from permissive to intolerant.  So I can understand why people might say the things that have been said.

I want to say first off that I have become very good friends with Kenny.  In my world that is uncommon because most Christians I know wouldn't have even talked with him.  What a shame.  They are missing out on a wonderful warm human being that has really become a bright person in my life.  He is creative, fun, talented and a breath of fresh air.    I have other gay friends but they are not as close as Kenny, so we haven't talked like Kenny and I have.  I appreciate our friendship Kenny, and would never want to harm it in anyway-in fact I'm grateful for your perspective and insight.. This has challenged me. 

I think that until someone really opens their heart and quits judging (on both sides of the issue) they can't really begin an honest conversation about this topic.  Kenny and I know what we believe and where we stand on things, but we still have a strong friendship.  We focus on what we have in common, not on what we don't.

With all that said, it is a tough subject because I feel the Bible is clear on homosexuality. I'm not going to do a big bible study here, but suffice it to say there are many scriptures about it all, and both sides of the issue has beaten each other over the head with them.  I'm not sure that has done any good, because the Bible isn't supposed to be used as a weapon against people.  It's supposed to encourage us and help us live life to the fullest.

What I'm also clear on is that God loves everyone no matter what orientation they are.  I think sexual orientation, or any behavior for that matter is secondary to the fact that we are all human beings put on a planet with a purpose and destiny. While I may think certain things are sin, I love people.  In my Bible Jesus died on the cross and rose again for everyone, not just the ones that act a certain way and jump through some hoops. 

The only thing I can see that saves us is faith in what Jesus did on the cross.

While I might not agree with the lifestyle that anyone of us chooses to live it isn't my call to condemn a person.  That is up to God.  It is up to every person to read for themselves, pray if they want to ---and ask God how they should live.  I think God is big enough to sort it all out if someone honestly wants His opinion.  We all mess it up when we insult each other, or worse abuse each other because we think we have it all together. In my opinion none of us do.  We are all human.

I haven't always lived the lifestyle I do.  All the way up to 18 I lived however I wanted too.  We all should change and grow as human beings, and I am not the same person I was even 10 years ago.  I don't want to limit anyone.  That's why I go to counseling on a regular basis and have friends in my life that hold me accountable for my actions.  I pray and I study the scriptures but I try to make it as practical as I can.  If I'm doing something wrong then I am hopeful that I will figure it out.  But that is what I do.  I can't make anyone else do that.  Freewill is just that-- freewill.  For me, I let the Bible define right and wrong.  That of course can be challenging, not everyone agrees with that, obviously.

So I guess this makes me think of a few things...

1.  Do we believe the Bible as an authority in our life?
If we don't then the argument is over.  What's the point? Believe whatever you want to.  If there is any chance that it is true, then we should probably at least keep an open mind to do a little research on it.

2.  Can we set aside our prejudice and bigotry and be honest without condemning?
I can believe I'm right, but trying to force that on someone by condemning them only drives them away.  It does nothing to help the situation.  We must all come from the angle that we are in the same boat floating on a planet called Earth.  Each of us deserves respect and the right to our opinion.  There is a great scripture that says, It is His kindness that leads us to repentance.  Notice it says kindness, not harshness and judgmentalism.

So I can disagree with someone without being a jerk or slamming them.  I can even support the person as a fellow human being.  Our choice to treat each other with respect and kindness is just that.  OUR CHOICE.

3.  Can we let God be God in someone else's life?
The bottom line is I can't force my beliefs on anyone.  I can share my faith and my friendship, but I can't and shouldn't force anyone to believe what I do. It has to be a choice.  I honestly believe that if someone really wants to know God then they can.  I hope everyone does someday, but I can't force it.  I truly think God is big enough to reveal himself if they truly want to know Him.


I don't understand the militancy on either side of things.  I've never been one to pick up a picket sign and yell at someone.  I do think that we all should have equality.  Sure, I think everyone would be happier if they believed like me.. you know?  :laugh: But I think that is being a little presumptuous and arrogant to think that is reality.

All that to say... I'm not totally clear on how I feel about it all.  It is a hard subject for me in my world-- I wish it was an easier topic.

Phew!  You asked our opinion Kenny! :)


Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Rico on June 18, 2008, 04:41:25 AM
Interesting points Rick.  The bottom line for me on this subject and many others is does this impact me or others in a negative way?  My answer is no.  Therefore I have no problem with it.  I don't want anyone dictating my life to me and therefore I won't decide how others should live their lives.  Simple as that.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on June 18, 2008, 04:48:36 AM
Great post Rick! I spent two hours on the phone with my friend last night discussing everything from the concept of original sin, the trinity, and homosexuality in the bible. He fall on the more intolerant side of the spectrum. He believes in the literal word of the bible and everything that goes with it. In the end, we could only agree to disagree. While he see this as a sign of the coming end days, I feel that when all things are said and done, everything will be figured out in the end.

I respect the depths of his faith even if I don't agree with his methods and he respects that I'm willing to go to hell for my beliefs, but also feels sorry for me because he thinks I'm missing the answers. 

You put a lot of what we talked about into words perfectly and falls somewhere in the middle of that. I question any and everything and to him all answers begin and end with Jesus. It's like the Odd Couple only a lot more vocal and passion tossed around.

His idea is to love the sinner but hate the sin. My idea is more love the person and let God decide exactly what a sin is, I don't have the moral authority to do so.

But you did address a go deal of my own questions and I love how you suggest, not told, that if there is a chance something is true then you should do the research. If I have said anything that might have offended I am sorry. If I have used scripture out of context and in an offensive way, I also apologize for that. When I have an idea about something, I look for means to support it and I like others that haven't studied the Bible might (and more that likely is) be messing up the lessons that is being offered.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: billybob476 on June 18, 2008, 05:44:09 AM
I've already made my points (even though they are substantially less eloquent then others), but I just want to interject and say that as usual, I am very impressed with the intelligence and maturity of this community. It is so very easy to degenerate into name calling and attacks on individuals and their beliefs.

As I said in my previous posts, blind devotion to a belief is easier then frank and open discussion about it and I'm glad we are big enough to discuss such a hot topic in a constructive manner.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: The IC on June 18, 2008, 11:00:58 AM
Congrats Kenny.

48 states to go!
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Jen on June 18, 2008, 12:02:03 PM
The way you guys are handling this topic is admirable and a very big reason why I continue to frequent these boards.

That being said, I agree with Rick. Especially when he said this: "I don't understand the militancy on either side of things.  I've never been one to pick up a picket sign and yell at someone. I do think that we all should have equality.  Sure, I think everyone would be happier if they believed like me.. you know?  But I think that is being a little presumptuous and arrogant to think that is reality. All that to say... I'm not totally clear on how I feel about it all.  It is a hard subject for me in my world-- I wish it was an easier topic."

As some of you know, I am a Christian too. My mother taught many things but some of the things Jesus said have stuck with me the longest.  The Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and  "Love one another as I have Loved you. " She also taught me this: "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "he who is without sin cast the first stone". The first passage above, means that no one individual has the right to point a bony finger in condemnation and anyone one else. The second means that I am not a better or more worthy than other people. It ticks me off when the loudest most obnoxious people speak in behalf of Christians. They are not the majority but they get the most face time. I don't hate people... I was taught that "hate" was a bad word and I got my mouth washed out with soap for saying it, especially when I told brother or sister, in anger, that "I hated them". It contradicts "love one another as I have loved you." He reached out to everyone: people with Leprosy, prostitutes, tax collectors... the people that folks back then considered the bottom of the barrel and were wrong about. Jesus loved them all and risked his live to make a connection with them.

I believe in His teachings and I try to apply them to my life, which I fail to do more often than not. No one is capable of ever being perfect... and no one is above anyone else. That being said, I consider Kenny a close friend and like Rick, see more similarities than differences between us. I'm going to be honest and admit that I am not sure what I believe as far as gay marriage is concerned. But I can say that I believe that everyone has the right to happiness and equal rights as long as it's not at the expense of anyone else's rights. I wish you well Kenny.

Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Meds on June 18, 2008, 12:15:55 PM
Oh i love this forum. Never have i met such people who are able to debate, converse and differ in such an intelligent and friendly way. You all should be proud. I as i said earlier in this post I will always maintain that happiness is the most important thing in life. If i make my partner happy, my friends happy, my family happy then i make myself happy. If happiness is brought on by loving someone that much that you want to be married to them then what more could you ask for.

Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on September 10, 2008, 04:23:13 PM
I just wanted to bump this thread in case anyone wants to continue the discussion on same sex marriage. It's a tough subject as it combines religion and politics and makes for a real barn burner. It's funny, the older I get and the more same sex couples I know personally and professionally, the more accommodate my thinking becomes. But I don't have a strong Christian upbringing. We are terrible, non practicing Anglicans. Sometimes I regret that, but it is who I am.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Meds on September 10, 2008, 11:38:14 PM
'Terrible Anglicans?????? Damn the workings of the Church of England' I don't understand why you regret being non practicing Bryan. If you don't practice it means you do not believe, its nothing to regret. I always say believe what you want but always remember the bible is a book, a transcript passed over many translations. Wouldn't it be amazing to see what the original scriptures were and compare them to the ones now.
My Mum and Dad had me christened when i was younger, my Mum goes to a United Reform Church and i was married at a UFC, but as you all know I am not religious. Am i being hypocritical, well no. My wife is religious and we have many conversations regarding her beliefs and my own. I live however in a Christian country and i abide by Christian law, so i uphold those beliefs. When the minister asked me if i minded saying the Christian vows for my wedding i said "Of course not", it makes no difference to me, i won't say to anyone do not believe because i have no right to dictate. That is the trouble with some religions, dictatorship. It is becoming apparent (in England anyway) that certain religions are aiming to control the world, now that's not on is it?
I'm not saying that I don't believe there was a young man called Jesus who preached good will because i do believe that but i don't believe the mythological writings eg immaculate conception, miracles and of course the world being made very quickly, come on dinosaurs were around).
Now I for one admire Rick, i think his method of preaching is the ideal way of preaching. He is fun, full of enjoyment and love and expresses his beliefs with an open heart. Maybe if we had many more Ricks in churches people would go more. Is it wrong to go to a church just to relax and enjoy the warmth of hospitality, I hope not, because the way i think, if a homosexual person needed help, advice or just a shoulder to cry on would a place that opens its arms to the needy be the ideal place to go. Here is my point, would you turn Kenny away if he came to your church in need of help (I don't mean religious), would you turn a gay man or woman away from the pouring rain, a storm, a hurricane? That's the question. If you were to say "Yes i would turn a gay person away from this building in an hour of need" then I'm afraid if there is a heaven you ain't getting in, because to turn your back, turn someone away in an hour of need is the biggest sin of all.
Just my opinion guys, remember that.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on September 11, 2008, 04:27:23 AM
For me, the question of same sex marriages revolve about one personal question.

Would I like my children to grow up to marry the person of their choice?

I don't know what sexuality my children will be. I don't care one way or another as long as they are happy. What I do care about is that if I don't fight for these rights, these simple liberties that are not solely based in religion, they might be denied when they are older.

I'm not some selfless person. I fight and argue for equality because it might one day affect my children's choices.

I put money away for their future school. I vote in elections to give them a better future.

I am too selfish to let someone deny MY children rights, even if the odds are for them being straight.

I am too selfish to allow revisionist history to change marriage into something it never was. Marriage wasn't only man and woman. It was and is a ever changing thing that started off as a simple too for men to control women and deny them a choice.

I am tired of groups of people thinking that they have some divine right to claim when and how certain words are being used and who can use them. I think that because of my background I can see things that are missed by some people.

Take the N-Word. Some people don't want anyone to use it because of it's history. Some people feel that they have a right to use it among their specific group because they had a long history with the word. Some people feel that if it's okay for one group to use it in a non-hurtful way then every group should be able to use it freely.

It's a stupid debate that has to do more with feeling entitled and special. To be able to get away with something that would be offensive if others did it.

Substitute the M-Word for the N-word and you have yet another reason why this is a silly debate. One group should not have exclusive rights to the use of a word even if they are generous enough to agree that the people that want to get married should have legal protections.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: billybob476 on September 11, 2008, 05:03:33 AM
Hey X, I'm interested in some specific examples where same sex marriage was allowed in history. Not because I don't believe you, but for my own knowledge. It's a powerful argument.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on September 11, 2008, 07:04:25 AM
here are a few sources:

Suetonius Life of Nero 28-29; Martial Epigrams 1.24, 12.42; etc.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20464004/
http://www.enotalone.com/article/4358.html

There are a lot of history books out there that talk about early marriage and how it's changed. Each are worth a read.


Also there are other points So, here is my link crazy post:

http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/pros_cons/gaymarriage/gaymarriagefull.html

Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on October 16, 2008, 01:39:32 PM
We are losing the battle guys.. Proposition 8 (constitutional gay marriage ban in CA) is gaining steam. It's so depressing to know that a majority of people out there want to take away our civil rights as human beings. The attack ads on TV are horrible and make the gay community sound like child molestors and monsters. I walked out my front door a few days ago and the neighbors across the street have these huge signs "Yes on Prop 8" in their front yard.. so everyday I'm reminded of the hatered.

I know the majority of you here don't believe I have the right to be legally married but there are a few of you who do and I just wanted to vent to you guys my frustration. Thank.. now back to my happy geeky self. :)
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: billybob476 on October 16, 2008, 01:44:56 PM
I'm sorry and upset to hear this Kenny. If there's anything I can do (not being a CA resident) please let me know.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on October 16, 2008, 02:03:58 PM
Thanks Billybob.. will find out in 18 days..
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Rico on October 16, 2008, 03:29:03 PM
Sorry to hear that Kenny.  I'm curious what happens to those that have married if this happens?  Do their marriages become voided?  That would seem really odd.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on October 16, 2008, 03:50:07 PM
yes if this proposition passes all marriage between same sex couple will be null and void. They would have no legal standing at all, it would be another worthless piece of paper... yeah that's fair. :(
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: KC on October 16, 2008, 04:30:03 PM
I wish you the best, Kenny and I sincerely hope that proposition doesn't pass.  No one should have their marriage voided for any reason.  :(
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on October 16, 2008, 05:07:52 PM
Yes, we are seeing similar aggressive campaigns against gay marriage here in AZ as well. I'm so sorry Kenny.   :'(
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: ElfManDan on October 16, 2008, 05:34:05 PM
Marriage is marriage, the government should be able to stop or void two people who want to get married or be married. This is supposed to be a free country, if people don't agree with gay marriage let them whine, there votes shouldn't count in the matter. It should be people's rights to marry who they want.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on October 16, 2008, 05:36:49 PM
Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on October 16, 2008, 03:50:07 PM
yes if this proposition passes all marriage between same sex couple will be null and void. They would have no legal standing at all, it would be another worthless piece of paper... yeah that's fair. :(

Kenny if I am not mistaken, those that are already married will be protected by the whole grandfather clause.

We had that same issue here is Mass when people wanted to over turn it. If you are legally married, they can't void your marriage, but they can stop others from getting married.

as for this whole issue, I just wish people would grow up. If people actually spent time researching marriage they would see that it's an ever changing thing and the whole one man / one woman take on it isn't more than a few centuries old at best.

Traditional roles and rules change with each generation. I for one am glad it progressed from men being able to marry as many little girls as they wanted without the girls having a say. I'm glad that it's progressed from raped women being forced to marry their rapist. I'm also glad that in some places they feel that it's okay for two adults that love each other to be married and protected.

The key problem with marriage is that it is fundamentally flawed. Rules are in place that only allow certain people to get married and they don't care if there are other valid and consenting adult relationships.

It's all too damned puritan for me personally. I for one am so sick of someone else deciding what adults are allowed to get married. I'm also not stupid enough to think that a person can only love one person of the opposite gender.

I personally don't care who anyone married or if they want to marry six people. If everyone in the relationship is cool with the relationship, who the hell am I to say that they can't be happy because their love is not vanilla?

The simple fact that while a person might be smart and wise, groups of people tend to fall into lemming like behavior and refuse to think for themselves.

If a same sex marriage isn't hurting ANYONE, what the hell is the debate about?

If your religion doesn't like it ... cool, but that's YOUR religion.

There are a lot of things that I don't like, take abortion. I hate it on a personal level, but I'm pro choice because it's not any of my business what a woman wants to do with her body.

I'm far from the most advanced person on the planet, but if I can support something that I don't agree with because it doesn't concern or harm me, how hard is it for others to take that stand?

I support it because it's the right thing to do. I support same sex marriage because it's the right thing to do. I also agree with it.

Let's be real for a minute. If marriage worked as written, we would have far few divorces. We don't because the fantasy of what marriage is doesn't live up to the reality of what marriage is. It is my personal opinion that most marriages fail because people have this unrealistic concept of what marriage actually is.

It's a piece of paper that grants legal rights and tax breaks. That's it.

It's not a magical fix to a problem relationship. It's not a mystical tool that will enforce the vows that people make. Tax breaks and legal rights, that's what marriage is.

Now here's where it gets tricky. Marriage is just a contract, but the vows are what makes the relationship.

When one person decides they want to let another person be their voice and speak for them when they are too ill to do so. To take care of things after they are gone. To build something together.

That's where the magic is. It's putting your life, hopes, and dreams into the hands of another and that takes a lot of courage and faith in that person. I don't think that ANYONE else in the world should be able to say "Hey, I don't agree with who you want to share yourself with, so you can't."

If you are willing to make that big a leap. You should be ENTITLED to the paper that will back up your partner's right to do those things for you.

It's not that hard a concept to understand.

I'm sure that for every person that hates to call to same sex people together a marriage probably has the same amount of people somewhere else in the world with their more than one spouse that think their definition of marriage is just a tad bit shallow.

Monogamous heterosexual marriages are not the definition of marriage and it's a bit elitist to assume that it is when history completely disagrees with that.

I know I'm probably not making any sense, but I can't express how stupid it is to me that people need to fight for something that has nothing to do with anyone outside of the relationships involving it.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on October 16, 2008, 05:44:46 PM
Quote from: Just X on October 16, 2008, 05:36:49 PM
Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on October 16, 2008, 03:50:07 PM
yes if this proposition passes all marriage between same sex couple will be null and void. They would have no legal standing at all, it would be another worthless piece of paper... yeah that's fair. :(

Kenny if I am not mistaken, those that are already married will be protected by the whole grandfather clause.


Thank you guys for your kind words.. it's nice to know that there are still some open minded and loving people out there. :)

And Just X.. No.. unfortunately that is not the case.. if this proposition passes.. all gay marriage will be against the law and therefore illegal and voided.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Meds on October 16, 2008, 11:20:45 PM
Deary me. What a pathetic bunch of cretins you have in your county. I keep my cool on a lot of things, i bite my lip trust me, but this time I'm sorry. This year I've made some fantastic friends on this site (and i am proud to call you all friends) and Kenny is one of these guys and he has become a good friend. I was so happy to see his smiling cheeky face on the photo's of his wedding day. It made people even more happy because the dinosaurs in his county had finally grown up and made it legal in his county. Now they are proposing to change it again!!! Whats with these people. Do we not live in a modern fracking society, quite clearly not. What will be next burning at the stake i suppose,,,, wouldn't suprise me because lets face it the intelligence and humanity of these pathetic people seem to have slipped out of their brains. Am i being harsh,,, you know what i couldn't care less.
I live in a country which has its flaws, it has a pathetic spineless government but at least we have the right here to legally be with the people we love. I'm (as you all know) am not gay and I've never really thought much about gay marriage (why would i) until I became friends with a few gay people. And of course as soon as something affects my friends then if affects me. You see i love my friends, i don't want to see them upset or hurt. If I had a child and i got him/her the best present in the world the look in his/her face would make my world brighten up,,, how would i feel if someone then come and took the present away. Imagine that.... Now how do you feel.
Finnally lets make this clear, I'm not aiming this rant at anyone here, I don't really know peoples stances, (and we all have opinions which we all accept (thats what makes this site so much fun because we all can talk about stuff without falling out))I'm aiming this at the cretins in charge and the neanderthals who seem to want to destroy the one thing people should strive for... and that is happiness.

And with that I'm going back to dribble over the new Star Trek pictures.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on November 05, 2008, 07:38:50 AM
This election have been a roller coaster of emotions..and so bittersweet. I was super high when Obama made history and became our president elect. But then Prop 8 (gay marriage ban in CA) was too close to call last night so I went to bed hoping.. well this morning it looks as though the ban on gay marriage is going to pass. Once again I am being treated as a second class citizen and a fundamental right is being taken away from me. I am proud to be an American but very disappointed to call myself a Californian.

I don't understand why the religious right care about my personal life, I'm not hurting anyone and I'm so tired of having to fight just have to a "normal" life.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: billybob476 on November 05, 2008, 07:41:26 AM
I'm very sorry to hear this Kenny. It's amazing to me that two events, one so positive and one so negative could happen at the same time.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Meds on November 05, 2008, 07:43:19 AM
i re-state my post above. I can't say anymore than that.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on November 05, 2008, 07:56:51 AM
I was hopeful last nught when I heard it was too close to call, didn't realize it the outcome this morning. This is what, the second or thrird time in as ny years it seems I have said sorry to you Kenny over this issue. :(
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Rico on November 05, 2008, 07:59:41 AM
Sorry Kenny.  People need to really get a clue.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: billybob476 on November 05, 2008, 10:14:05 AM
It might be unrealistic to hope but...

http://www.noonprop8.com/headlines/results-status/ (http://www.noonprop8.com/headlines/results-status/)

Quote
Results Status

Roughly 400,000 votes separate yes from no on Prop 8 – out of 10 million votes tallied.

Based on turnout estimates reported yesterday, we expect that there are more than 3 million and possibly as many as 4 million absentee and provisional ballots yet to be counted.

Given that fundamental rights are at stake, we must wait to hear from the Secretary of State tomorrow how many votes are yet to be counted as well as where they are from.

It is clearly a very close election and we monitored the results all evening and this morning.

As of this point, the election is too close to call.

Because Prop 8 involves the sensitive matter of individual rights, we believe it is important to wait until we receive further information about the outcome.

Geoff Kors
Executive Committee NO on Prop 8

Kate KendellExecutive Committee
NO on Prop 8
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on November 05, 2008, 10:22:04 AM
I find it odd that a typically liberal state went conservative all the sudden.  But then again, that's why the west coast has for the longest time been light blue.  In general elections like Presidential and such we are Democratic in voting, but in issues we seem to be very Republican/conservative.  Its a real oddity, but seems to be true.   :-\

A pity it seems to be passing.......

King
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Tan-Ru (banned) on November 05, 2008, 11:06:23 AM
OK, I'm not gonna make any posts other than this as I don't need to get myself in any more trouble.  :wallbash:

Kenny, take heart. This is a just a petty retaliation by those sensing their loss of control over our minds and lives  :starwars:

A minor setback toward many changes to follow.

Here is what I see happening in the future if our new president does what he says.

He will invoke the possibility that the the right to marry whomever you want comes under the constitutional right to privacy. He will LEAD this country to that possibility. That is what he will do and many / most could / will possibly / quietly follow. Quietly this will become a nonissue and you and others will be free to live the way you want.

*Caution* learn from this election process for it must be repeated again with the same or similar individual who lives in the same possibilities.

This is only one issue of many that will be transformed in the four years to come. Learn from the past and live in the possibilities of the future and maybe we will begin to live in the future Gene envisioned for us. That is why we are here, that is why we are aboard this forum.

Mr. Data, get us out of here, engage!
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Ktrek on November 05, 2008, 01:30:52 PM
Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on November 05, 2008, 07:38:50 AM
I don't understand why the religious right care about my personal life, I'm not hurting anyone and I'm so tired of having to fight just have to a "normal" life.

Kenny,

Now as you know I don't live in California but I have kept up in some measure about the Prop 8 issue. My understanding is that if the ban did not pass it would open up many legal entanglements that conservatives and Christians were/are not ready to deal with. The main one being that any gay couple could demand to be married by any clergyman and if the clergyman refused based on religious grounds he could be taken to court. I'm sorry but I am one who believes that changing and redefining what constitutes a marriage is wrong. Even Obama has said that marriage is between one man and one woman. Now, in saying that Kenny I am all for gay couples to have the same rights as heterosexual couples when it comes to disbursal of property, visitation of a sick loved one in the hospital etc. I do not see how redefining marriage is going to help your cause. It seems that gay couples are trying to infringe upon peoples religious rights in pressing this matter. That's just my opinion Kenny and trust me when I say I mean no ill toward you or Harry in any way. I just don't understand why the word "married" is important to gay people if the privileges that are enjoyed by married couples exist.

Kevin
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on November 05, 2008, 03:00:26 PM
You know what.. I'm done.. I'm sick to my stomach with this topic. I'm tried of trying to justice my civil rights and lifestyle to anyone. You either get it or you don't.

Though this was a great election for the people of the US it's been a very bad one for the gay community. Gay Marriage bans passed in CA(?), FL & AZ. Arkansas voted to bar all unmarried people (gays) from adopting children or fostering children.

We may have been defeated but this is far from over. 30 years ago they classified  "being gay" as a metal illness. 40 years ago blacks couldn't marry whites. Bigotry is alive and well in this country but with the election of Barack Obama I see a glimmer of hope that one day being gay won't be looked down upon and we will achieve our goal to live our life as we were meant.

And with that I am done with this thread. You can continue to discuss this topic if you wish but please do not expect me to respond.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: sheldor on November 05, 2008, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: Ktrek on November 05, 2008, 01:30:52 PM
Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on November 05, 2008, 07:38:50 AM
I don't understand why the religious right care about my personal life, I'm not hurting anyone and I'm so tired of having to fight just have to a "normal" life.

Kenny,

Now as you know I don't live in California but I have kept up in some measure about the Prop 8 issue. My understanding is that if the ban did not pass it would open up many legal entanglements that conservatives and Christians were/are not ready to deal with. The main one being that any gay couple could demand to be married by any clergyman and if the clergyman refused based on religious grounds he could be taken to court. I'm sorry but I am one who believes that changing and redefining what constitutes a marriage is wrong. Even Obama has said that marriage is between one man and one woman. Now, in saying that Kenny I am all for gay couples to have the same rights as heterosexual couples when it comes to disbursal of property, visitation of a sick loved one in the hospital etc. I do not see how redefining marriage is going to help your cause. It seems that gay couples are trying to infringe upon peoples religious rights in pressing this matter. That's just my opinion Kenny and trust me when I say I mean no ill toward you or Harry in any way. I just don't understand why the word "married" is important to gay people if the privileges that are enjoyed by married couples exist.

Kevin

I didn't keep up to date on this proposal but if indeed this clause was part of the proposal - its a violation of the first amendment.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on November 06, 2008, 04:45:22 PM
I just heard the couples already married prior to the proposition passing are exempt. Is that true Kenny?
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on November 11, 2008, 12:59:06 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27652443#27652443 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27652443#27652443)
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: billybob476 on November 11, 2008, 01:13:25 PM
Wow. That was very well said and I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Meds on November 11, 2008, 02:08:10 PM
I don't know who that guy is, but give him a standing ovation. How fantastic to hear someone in a position to be able to speak to thousands say such heart felt and meaningful words. Well done him, and well done to anyone else who stands up.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Geekyfanboy on November 17, 2008, 05:19:14 PM
Talk about Karma... it's a little things that make me happy.

http://coloradoindependent.com/15287/after-pumping-money-into-prop-8-focus-on-the-family-announcing-layoffs (http://coloradoindependent.com/15287/after-pumping-money-into-prop-8-focus-on-the-family-announcing-layoffs)
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Bryancd on November 17, 2008, 06:03:14 PM
Now, now, Kenny, we shouldn't wish ill on others. Do onto others as we would have....ahh, screw it, f'em! ;)
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on November 17, 2008, 10:48:37 PM
Geez....used to support them until this....its not just about the gay issue, its the fact that they felt the need to waste $500,000 on something like this.  Ministries are supposed to stay out of politics.  Its why I only listen to pastors that talk about non-political crap.  I of course have no problem talking about it with church-going members or staff, but not in a "official" setting like this. 

This makes me "sad". 

King
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: X on November 18, 2008, 03:39:42 AM
Quote from: Kinglinksr on November 17, 2008, 10:48:37 PM
Geez....used to support them until this....its not just about the gay issue, its the fact that they felt the need to waste $500,000 on something like this.  Ministries are supposed to stay out of politics.  Its why I only listen to pastors that talk about non-political crap.  I of course have no problem talking about it with church-going members or staff, but not in a "official" setting like this. 

This makes me "sad". 

King

The secret is that many churches don't stay out of politics, they just don't want the government involved in them.

It's not all churches by far, but in some, that money you donate is used to line the pockets of lobbyists. Some churches are there to spread the word, others are there to make sure that it's only their word being spread.
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: billybob476 on November 19, 2008, 06:17:09 PM
Wil Wheaton posted this on his blog. I have to agree...

Post at http://wilwheaton.typepad.com/wwdnbackup/2008/11/see-its-really.html (http://wilwheaton.typepad.com/wwdnbackup/2008/11/see-its-really.html)
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: Rico on November 19, 2008, 06:42:04 PM
Love that!
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on November 19, 2008, 10:07:51 PM
Quote from: Just X on November 18, 2008, 03:39:42 AM
Quote from: Kinglinksr on November 17, 2008, 10:48:37 PM
Geez....used to support them until this....its not just about the gay issue, its the fact that they felt the need to waste $500,000 on something like this.  Ministries are supposed to stay out of politics.  Its why I only listen to pastors that talk about non-political crap.  I of course have no problem talking about it with church-going members or staff, but not in a "official" setting like this. 

This makes me "sad". 

King

The secret is that many churches don't stay out of politics, they just don't want the government involved in them.

It's not all churches by far, but in some, that money you donate is used to line the pockets of lobbyists. Some churches are there to spread the word, others are there to make sure that it's only their word being spread.

Yea, that is the truth.  I just hope that mine isn't doing the latter because....I will be annoyed.  :(

King
Title: Re: Historic Day in California
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on November 19, 2008, 10:54:23 PM
Quote from: billybob476 on November 19, 2008, 06:17:09 PM
Wil Wheaton posted this on his blog. I have to agree...

Post at http://wilwheaton.typepad.com/wwdnbackup/2008/11/see-its-really.html (http://wilwheaton.typepad.com/wwdnbackup/2008/11/see-its-really.html)


Ok, THAT made me laugh.  hahahahaha 

King