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Author Topic: Historic Day in California  (Read 12845 times)

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Offline Geekyfanboy

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2008, 04:15:48 PM »

Because the terminology IS the issue for both sides. If you accept the premise that a "wedding" or "marriage" is a religious ceremony, you will now need to have the Bible changed in the eyes of the Catholic Church potentially. I think a little compromise can go a long way here.

Why should I have to compromise on something that every person has the right too? If you make a distinction between marriage and civil union then it tells people that we don't have the same rights and that we are different... which we are not.. my love for Harry is the same as your love for your wife... why do I need to compromise?

Offline Bryancd

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2008, 04:21:10 PM »

Because the terminology IS the issue for both sides. If you accept the premise that a "wedding" or "marriage" is a religious ceremony, you will now need to have the Bible changed in the eyes of the Catholic Church potentially. I think a little compromise can go a long way here.

Why should I have to compromise on something that every person has the right too? If you make a distinction between marriage and civil union then it tells people that we don't have the same rights and that we are different... which we are not.. my love for Harry is the same as your love for your wife... why do I need to compromise?

I don't think you should, the Catholic Church apparently does. THAT'S where your fight is. Your argument is not with the state or federal government, it's with the Vatican. You don't have to compromise BUT I for one would think the state and federal recognition of civil unions would be a major step in the right direction.

Offline X

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2008, 04:28:14 PM »

Because the terminology IS the issue for both sides. If you accept the premise that a "wedding" or "marriage" is a religious ceremony, you will now need to have the Bible changed in the eyes of the Catholic Church potentially. I think a little compromise can go a long way here.
If we are to accept the Catholic Church as the authority on marriage, then none but Catholics would be able to use the term marriage. Even then, granted I don't have a bible on me, I believe the bible also says that you can only marry someone that also believes in God and can't be of another tribe.

That being said, there would be a lot less people married if we decide to go on one religion's definition of marriage. If we go for ALL religion's definition of marriage, then Same-sex marriage would qualify because there are faiths out there that allow it.

Also, as far as I know. In all US States, marriage is civil. You can have priest or ministers conduct vows until the cows come home, but in the eyes of the US, that doesn't make it a marriage. Signing the marriage certificate is what makes it a marriage. Religion in the US has little to nothing to do with Marriage.

Can you get married without being wed by someone religious? Yes, you can do it several ways, the largest percentage of that being a Justice of the Peace.

Can you have religious wedding and not be married? Yes. You can get married in a church to forty different people and it won't count until you file a little piece of paper that says you are married.

The longest tradition for marriage in the US actually is a civil contract that is in the laws of the state of Mass. The courts there have ruled that it does not limit marriage based on gender.

So in a nutshell you have two things:

1) Marriage has been a civil institution in this country since before it became a country.
2) Same-sex marriages have been legal since that first draft and only now taking place.

For me it's a pretty simple case of not letting ANY religion dictate what a word should be and to let a single religion define marriage is an insult to anyone not of that religion and wanting to be married.

So I guess I just don't accept that marriage is a religious thing. I think that religion has co-opted a lot of it, but then again anything that had a chance of putting coin into the coffers of the early church was welcomed whole heartedly.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 04:31:27 PM by Just X »

Offline Bryancd

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2008, 04:38:59 PM »
I agree 100% and I for one think Harry would look awesome in white......;)


I'm just trying to identify the issue and find a way forward.

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2008, 04:39:40 PM »

I'm against, but I'm not.....whats the word......a zealous righteous dirtbag about it. 

Tim, I get what you're saying, but if you don't mind me asking, why are you against it?

I know the 'Company Line' when it comes to the vocal protesters of same-sex marriage, but as a whole, these views fail to hold water when placed under a magnifying glass.

What I mean to ask, is:

Do you have specific reason why same-sex marriage should not be allowed?

As Kenny has heard me rant in private on this subject on several occasions, it is one that I also happily enjoy engaging others in a health debate.

There is a slim chance that views would be changed in such debates, but I think it helps me as a person to understand how and why people choose a view and what they use to support it.

I will answer this after dinner.  I'd do it right now, but my Mother wants to kill me with her eyes. :(

King
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Offline X

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2008, 04:50:14 PM »
I'm just trying to identify the issue and find a way forward.

I think that the issue is pretty simple. There are people that think marriage and the universe has only one right way and it is there way. If you don't agree, that's your problem and things shouldn't have to change because you don't agree.

To support their views, they take a very myopic slice of history and claim it as truth while deciding anything against that view point is heresy or an attempt a evil to gain a greater foothold in the world.

I can't speak for everyone's views, but I have a close friend that believe in a lot of things that science and history would contradict and he justifies his views by putting it under a banner of the work of evil trying to corrupt the morals of righteous men or man trying to discount the works of God.

Using him as a basis for my theory, I see that the issue is that many of the people that agree with his views also think that the acceptance of same-sex marriage is an attack on them and the moral foundation of humanity.

There can't be a compromise when a nice chunk of the people refuse to even accept the fundamental truths about homosexuality. There also shouldn't be a need to compromise.

If you are fighting gay marriage on the ground of religion, then what will happen when you lose that fight? If your church implodes into flames because of a word, is it the word that caused the problem or is it in the religion where the problem resides?

Offline X

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2008, 04:56:31 PM »
Oh and just to clarify, I am not trying to wave a banner for gay rights, straight rights, women's rights, men's right, or any other specific right. I am waving a flag for equal rights for all people.

When I became a parent, I realized how important equal rights were. I don't know what my children are going to grow up to be. I don't know what sexual orientation they are going to have.

What I do know is that when I became a father I swore to myself and my children that I would do all that I could to give them a good life. If they grow up and want to get married. They should have that option and not be restricted to what some people want to define marriage as. They should be entitled to the same emotional roller coaster that marriage can cause any couple. They should have a chance to be happy and when I became a parent, I swore to give them that.

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2008, 05:26:53 PM »
Ok, being honest here, I have no facts to say WHY this is wrong. 

My belief in Gay-marriage being wrong comes from my being a Christian and what the Bible says and probably part from my parents feeling on the subject.  I have no..."oh you'll die 20 years sooner" or "you'll get aids 10 times more likely".  Its just pure Religious and Personal opinion. 

Which I can have.  Yes, this would partially make me "blind" to my "hatred" or "disagreement" of gay marriage.  I suppose just to me it feels wrong.  No, I'm not saying that Kenny is "wrong" in some biological/mental way, but I'm just saying that the act of marriage to me should be between a man and a woman.  I've also had the opinion that it could potentially "mess-up" children.  HOWEVER, considering today's youth, how the hell can we judge them.  I'd say there is an equal or possibly better chance that these kids will grow up into normal healthy human beings.  (By normal, I mean non-alcoholics, non-drug addicts, etc)

So in a long-winded really-odd way of saying it, my opinions of disliking Gay Marriage come from my personality beliefs and Christian views. 

What can I say, I'm human. :\

King
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Offline X

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2008, 06:02:35 PM »
My belief in Gay-marriage being wrong comes from my being a Christian and what the Bible says and probably part from my parents feeling on the subject.  I have no..."oh you'll die 20 years sooner" or "you'll get aids 10 times more likely".  Its just pure Religious and Personal opinion. 

I can understand this because I am from a very religious family. The problem is I think that I've read the bible more times than any of them combined.

I don't profess to be a theologists, but here is what I read in the bible:

1) Homosexuality was not the sin in Sodom. A sin was never listed in that passage. Some people after the fact assumed it was homosexuality and emphasized that by calling the act sodomy (Gen 13:13). In Ezekiel 16:49 claims the sins of Sodom were pride, gluttony, sloth, greed, and failure to help the poor.

2) In Leviticus it talks about a man laying with another man as a woman being bad. For me this doesn't imply homosexuality, but more a Cry Game situation. In those situation I think that it is very bad.

3) Paul has a lot to say about homosexuality, but then again he also was never a disciple of Jesus or even met the man other than in a vision. Paul had a lot to say about a lot of things, some of them constricted the teaching of Jesus and the words of the disciples. If I were Christian, I think that I would rather put my stock in the guys that actually broke bread with the man.

4) there was a disciple or guy that hung out, half naked with Jesus, then hauled tail out of there naked when Jesus was arrested. (Somehow that fails to make the movies, but I think that it would have been an interesting sight!) Mark 14:51

5) During the last supper, there is a guy that is resting his head on Jesus' chest during the entire meal. (John 13:23) That seems a bit cozy, but Paul then condemns any effeminate behavior in Cor 6:9 - 10.

6) In Samuel 18:1 it talk about how Jonathan and David were soul mates and goes into their relationship.

So for me, and I can't convince anyone to accept my views, but it looks like the bible was mixed at best on the subject. There were a few that spoke out against it, but when you get into two guys being basically soul mates, you have to assume that God had a hand in that. The fact that Jesus nor any of his actual disciples mentioned anything negative about homosexuality speaks volumes especially when his job on Earth was to update the rules and give humanity a new path to follow that was beyond the killing for almost any transgression in the old testament.

 

Offline Bryancd

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2008, 06:34:10 PM »
The irony of that is the Bible apparently isn't open to anyone interpretation. Odd but true.

Offline X

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2008, 07:04:24 PM »
The irony of that is the Bible apparently isn't open to anyone interpretation. Odd but true.

Yeah, I noticed that. I'm on the phone with my friend now and we're having that same talk.

Offline Geekyfanboy

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2008, 07:20:37 PM »
Thank you for King for being honest
Ok, being honest here, I have no facts to say WHY this is wrong. 

My belief in Gay-marriage being wrong comes from my being a Christian and what the Bible says and probably part from my parents feeling on the subject.  I have no..."oh you'll die 20 years sooner" or "you'll get aids 10 times more likely".  Its just pure Religious and Personal opinion. 

Which I can have.  Yes, this would partially make me "blind" to my "hatred" or "disagreement" of gay marriage.  I suppose just to me it feels wrong.  No, I'm not saying that Kenny is "wrong" in some biological/mental way, but I'm just saying that the act of marriage to me should be between a man and a woman.  I've also had the opinion that it could potentially "mess-up" children.  HOWEVER, considering today's youth, how the hell can we judge them.  I'd say there is an equal or possibly better chance that these kids will grow up into normal healthy human beings.  (By normal, I mean non-alcoholics, non-drug addicts, etc)

So in a long-winded really-odd way of saying it, my opinions of disliking Gay Marriage come from my personality beliefs and Christian views. 

What can I say, I'm human. :\

King

First I want to Thank you for being honest King..that says a lot about your character. I'm sure there are many more folks on this forum who feel the exact same way as you. But I would like to disagree with one thing you did say... that a gay couple would "mess up" their kids. Love is love and that is all children need, regardless if it's two dads, two moms, a mom and a dad or just a mom or dad... we don't love differently.

And just so you know.. I'm human too.

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2008, 08:05:49 PM »
No no, I said that was my early notion of children and such.  You'll notice I said later that a gay couple has an equal or better chance. 

And your welcome, sometimes, my honesty bites me in the butt.  I keep learning though ;)

King
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Offline Ktrek

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2008, 08:47:01 PM »
This has been very interesting reading everyone's opinions. For myself I have to break this down to my political view and my religious or moral view.

First, as a Christian I believe that marriage is clearly defined as between a man and a woman and not between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. I also believe it to be against the "natural" order of things. Men cannot procreate with another man or women with women. It's impossible. In the book of Genesis man was commanded to go and repopulate the Earth and if Adam had been a homosexual this could never have happened. If all the population became same sex minded then the inevitable result would be the extinction of humans on the Earth. I do believe the Bible is an "inspired" book. I am not sure that it is "infallible". I do believe that the basic guidance is within it's pages to help one on their quest to know God and who He is and what He expects of us in regards to life and conduct.

Secondly, there is my political belief. I do not see why two gay people, who are in a committed relationship, cannot/should not enjoy the same benefits as heterosexual married couples. This is a "legal" issue and not a "moral" issue as far as I can see. Just because a marriage is recognized between two people of the same sex by the government does not mean that it is recognized by the supreme judge of the universe. So how does it affect me? it does not as far as I can tell.

Where I would have to draw the line will be when homosexuals demand that religious institutions, ones that oppose gay marriage, be forced to perform gay marriages. As long as the gay community is happy with a judge marrying them, or an ordained clergy that supports it, then I am fine with it. Obviously a majority of Christian institutions will not be supportive and actually be opposed to gay marriage and it would be wrong for the gay community to impose itself on their beliefs by forcing, the Catholic Church for example, into performing gay weddings, contrary to their 2000 year old beliefs. Catholics have the right to hold their beliefs, and defend them as necessary, and I will be standing by the side of my Catholic brethren if it comes down to this. Otherwise, I cannot and would not stand in the way of Kenny and Harry getting married. That is their right and their decision and I think the law stands beside them even if the Church cannot.

Kevin
"Oh...Well, Who am I to argue with me?" Dr. Bashir - Visionary - Deep Space Nine

Offline Meds

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Re: Historic Day in California
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2008, 09:31:02 PM »
I'll just repeat what i said earlier. Love is love. We live in a modern age, times change and for the better.

 




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