Are Dooku and Anakin Evil, Really?

[ori-STUDFARM]

I know he is in the Clone Wars, but I don't believe he is evil in Phantom Menace or Attack Of The Clones.

I believe that the Jedi Council has become distant from the galaxy around them and are too set in thier old ways. They are not evil but do have faults. And I think it is this that causes Dooku to fall onto the wrong path. I also believe in Ep 1 and Ep2 that he thinks he is doing what he does for the benefit of the Jedi order. But as we know,once you set out down that dark path......I also think that Qui Gon could easily have gone the same route and was in fact very similar to Dooku. He didn't have total faith in the council either.

Are the Council to blame for the rise of the Sith and for Dooku's down fall?

[Meds]

Interesting question. May have to drink some beer and head back and watch them. I think dooku is simply just weak. He can't see past the emperors false teeth but yes i do think the jedi council have lost their Way.

[Rico]

It's a complicated question.  From the movie standpoint, I feel he is evil.  He knows what he is doing and he is helping the Emperor, who he knows is a Sith, eliminate the Jedi and take over the Republic.  He is simply seduced by the dark side and the air of power, somewhat like Anakin was.  But he doesn't have Anakin's power in the Force, so he is defeated by him.  They all had choices and both Dooku and Anakin made some bad decisions.  Perhaps not completely evil and maybe weak to start, but the key is they continued down the dark path.  And that is evil, since they know what they are doing then. 

[Bryancd]

Interesting question. May have to drink some beer and head back and watch them. I think dooku is simply just weak. He can't see past the emperors false teeth but yes i do think the jedi council have lost their Way.

Actually, I don't see him as weak, even the Jedi Council were pawns to Palpatine. I see him as an idealist, very much like Qui-gon, but they fell down different paths. I think Lucas intended him to be a conflicted character of nebulous allegiance. I think he really believed the Jedi were going down the wrong path and the simplicity of purpose of the Sith drew him in, but his motivation was for the greater good as opposed to individual power. That's way Palpatine saw in Anakin the true apprentice as opposed to Dooku. Anakin was purely selfish and more powerful because of it.

[Rico]

I think one thing to always think about is the question does the character view themselves as evil or are they just evil based on what they do and so on?  Anyway, I never saw Dooku as seeming conflicted in the films.  He seemed to think his way was the best way - as most bad guys tend to do.

[X]

Interesting question. May have to drink some beer and head back and watch them. I think dooku is simply just weak. He can't see past the emperors false teeth but yes i do think the jedi council have lost their Way.

Actually, I don't see him as weak, even the Jedi Council were pawns to Palpatine. I see him as an idealist, very much like Qui-gon, but they fell down different paths. I think Lucas intended him to be a conflicted character of nebulous allegiance. I think he really believed the Jedi were going down the wrong path and the simplicity of purpose of the Sith drew him in, but his motivation was for the greater good as opposed to individual power. That's way Palpatine saw in Anakin the true apprentice as opposed to Dooku. Anakin was purely selfish and more powerful because of it.

You had my agreement up until the Anakin was selfish part. Anakin fell because he loved his wife. He also brought balance to the force for a time. Two jedi / two sith. Be careful what you wish for.

[Rico]

Since we are spinning off a bit on Anakin, one thing I may have said before is I always found the transition he takes in "Revenge of the Sith" not quite satisfying.  Ok, he sees a vision and wants to save Padme, but why does that all of a sudden turn him against Obi-Wan and all that he has trusted and known for so long?  I know it's a movie and all, but it just seemed to happen way too fast and easy.  I always thought that something more dramatic should have happened.  Like if Padme had been killed due to the failure of Obi-Wan or the Jedi, that might have been better to push Anakin over the edge.  Of course, she would have needed to have the twins first.  Anyway, sorry for the divergence from Dooku.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I think the book explains it a little better and that maybe the Clone Wars will explain it more, but I will agree, the transition could have been done better.  It was very abrupt and a little odd.  Was the Emperor controlling him that much by then?  Was the council too harsh on Annikan?  I don't know.  It was never explained well. 

Is Dooku evil?  Well, from what we're seeing from the Clone Wars and what we saw on screen, I think the answer is yes.  Does he view himself that way?  No.  Few villains do. 

King

[jedijeff]

I agree a lot with what Bryan said about Dooku, in the movies he came off more as an Idealist. When speaking with Obi-Wan in Episode 2, his reasons did not sound overly evil to me, just that he no longer felt the path of the Jedi was the best. The Clone wars exposes him as a bit more ruthless and evil well doing the work for Sideous.

In Episode 2 Anakin did show signs of frustration against Obi-Wan, in that he was being held back. In Episode 3 that was increased in feeling he was being held back by the Council. Given his perception that he was the chosen one, I can see over time where that would push to the dark side. Palpatine was also fueling those feelings as well, and add in some incidents with his Mom and Padme, I can see the turn. It might have felt more natural to be drawn out a bit more, and maybe they needed a few more scenes in Episode 3 highlighting the turn, as it does feel a little bit like a switch was turned on in him. I am hoping in the Clone Wars they touch a bit more on some of those feelings he had of being held back.

[Rico]

Good points Jeff.  Yeah, being held back was part of it for Anakin.  As far as Dooku, I think yeah maybe he had better intentions at first and got kind of swept up in things.  I think part of it was how the Jedi had grown kind of stale and complacent over the years and Dooku didn't like what he was seeing.  But making your new master a Sith Lord still has to be kind of evil I'd say.

[Bryancd]

You had my agreement up until the Anakin was selfish part. Anakin fell because he loved his wife. He also brought balance to the force for a time. Two jedi / two sith. Be careful what you wish for.

No, I agree, that's what I mean by selfish. He wants to save Padme for himself, he's not as interested in the greater good. As such and being as strong in the Force as he was, Palpatine likely saw Anakin as the superior apprentice and set Dokuu up to die at the start of Ep.III

[Shelby D]

Yeah, being held back was part of it for Anakin.  As far as Dooku, I think yeah maybe he had better intentions at first and got kind of swept up in things.  I think part of it was how the Jedi had grown kind of stale and complacent over the years and Dooku didn't like what he was seeing.  But making your new master a Sith Lord still has to be kind of evil I'd say.

I believe that both could be said about these two characters and I agree with Jeff. Anakin was showing a troubled path with Obi-Wan, the council and himself  - in not only this movie but from the first couple of movies prior. Which easily lead him to being taken down the dark path though a lack of patience and confidence in himself. It could be seen best when Obi often times reminded him of needing to be patient. IE Anakin always resented that when Ben said that to him.  

Anakin did have one thing on his mind in Ep 2 and 3 and a bit in Ep1 - save those important to him but it was to a fault. This flaw left him vulnerable and because of that fear - in the end he was left feeling lost and alone. At the same time, his arrogance and clear desire to 'reach the top' without letting calm and patience steal him was also his fault.

Also, when he caved in finally to the Emperor he was crying, IE: showing that he realized what he had done and what remained of the good in Anakin at that point - framing it from a plot device POW - was lost and he inwardly knew it quite well.

Lucas could have taken different avenues to show this - he did try though - after he became Darth Vader - his first inquiry is about Padme. The answer pushes him over the edge further - everything important to him is gone. - listening to Palpatine and his impatience has cost him - hence he sees nothing for him any longer. The final scene at the end of 'Sith' reflects and encompasses all his failures  - There is nothing left but to become evil.  

I mean really you gotta ask yourself - if she had lived - what - at that point would he have done. "Thanks for the surgery guy I gotta go now. Wife's calling. Later?"  

So one could speculate - what was trying to be conveyed was - these are the final hours of the 'good' (per say) Anakin's life until many years later when Luke confronted him.

Now, Duku, IMO, was a means to an end to show the outgoing apprentice - mirroring Bryan - he had outlived his usefulness and Palpatine needed fresh blood - that is obvious though - he wasn't meant to be a particularly deep character - but it is pretty much default that he may have gone through some transformation as well - such as Anakin - that lead him astray and to believe that what he was doing was right and what the council was doing was wrong. Hence allowing Palpatine to easily manipulate him.

Just my ramblings :D

Cheers

Crystal

[X]

It could be argued that Anakin as Vader still didn't see himself as evil. The world is a chaotic place. Someone needs to bring order. Jedi, who really should have gotten mental checkups for their willingness to slice off limbs are gone. This is a man torn by the guilt of killing wife and child. He gave up everything to save his wife only to find out he was the tool of her destruction. I don't think other life would mean much to him at that point, but bringing order to the universe might be a good thing to redeem yourself.

[Shelby D]

It could be argued that Anakin as Vader still didn't see himself as evil. The world is a chaotic place. Someone needs to bring order. Jedi, who really should have gotten mental checkups for their willingness to slice off limbs are gone. This is a man torn by the guilt of killing wife and child. He gave up everything to save his wife only to find out he was the tool of her destruction. I don't think other life would mean much to him at that point, but bringing order to the universe might be a good thing to redeem yourself.

I agree to a point - I think the way that Lucas framed it - Anakin did realize what he did because he did care at the end of Sith and he reacted to it - but the seemingly coldness once he finds out Padame and his child are dead because he failed (in his view) afterwards seems to direct the idea that this is a man who knows there is no place left for him but where he is. Deep down in the furthest reaches of himself he shuts away the good parts of him because he has burned all his bridges.

Indication of that is what he says to Luke when his son confronts Vader in Jedi and Luke says:

'He feels the good still in him he has just - I think the line is - forgotten' - or something like that. 

IE: Vader made himself forget the pain and agony of what he did and embraced the evil. He might have been looking for vindication but it seems unlikely considering what he does later. Plus he tells Luke before he dies.

"You were right - tell your sister you were right about me." There was still good deep inside of him.

:D Great thread everyone. :D

[Shelby D]

Thinking we should fire up the thread and call it  Is Dooku or Anakin Evil, Really  :luke