I know he is in the Clone Wars, but I don't believe he is evil in Phantom Menace or Attack Of The Clones.
I believe that the Jedi Council has become distant from the galaxy around them and are too set in thier old ways. They are not evil but do have faults. And I think it is this that causes Dooku to fall onto the wrong path. I also believe in Ep 1 and Ep2 that he thinks he is doing what he does for the benefit of the Jedi order. But as we know,once you set out down that dark path......I also think that Qui Gon could easily have gone the same route and was in fact very similar to Dooku. He didn't have total faith in the council either.
Are the Council to blame for the rise of the Sith and for Dooku's down fall?
Interesting question. May have to drink some beer and head back and watch them. I think dooku is simply just weak. He can't see past the emperors false teeth but yes i do think the jedi council have lost their Way.
It's a complicated question. From the movie standpoint, I feel he is evil. He knows what he is doing and he is helping the Emperor, who he knows is a Sith, eliminate the Jedi and take over the Republic. He is simply seduced by the dark side and the air of power, somewhat like Anakin was. But he doesn't have Anakin's power in the Force, so he is defeated by him. They all had choices and both Dooku and Anakin made some bad decisions. Perhaps not completely evil and maybe weak to start, but the key is they continued down the dark path. And that is evil, since they know what they are doing then.
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on September 03, 2009, 03:26:24 PM
Interesting question. May have to drink some beer and head back and watch them. I think dooku is simply just weak. He can't see past the emperors false teeth but yes i do think the jedi council have lost their Way.
Actually, I don't see him as weak, even the Jedi Council were pawns to Palpatine. I see him as an idealist, very much like Qui-gon, but they fell down different paths. I think Lucas intended him to be a conflicted character of nebulous allegiance. I think he really believed the Jedi were going down the wrong path and the simplicity of purpose of the Sith drew him in, but his motivation was for the greater good as opposed to individual power. That's way Palpatine saw in Anakin the true apprentice as opposed to Dooku. Anakin was purely selfish and more powerful because of it.
I think one thing to always think about is the question does the character view themselves as evil or are they just evil based on what they do and so on? Anyway, I never saw Dooku as seeming conflicted in the films. He seemed to think his way was the best way - as most bad guys tend to do.
Quote from: Bryancd on September 03, 2009, 04:42:20 PM
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on September 03, 2009, 03:26:24 PM
Interesting question. May have to drink some beer and head back and watch them. I think dooku is simply just weak. He can't see past the emperors false teeth but yes i do think the jedi council have lost their Way.
Actually, I don't see him as weak, even the Jedi Council were pawns to Palpatine. I see him as an idealist, very much like Qui-gon, but they fell down different paths. I think Lucas intended him to be a conflicted character of nebulous allegiance. I think he really believed the Jedi were going down the wrong path and the simplicity of purpose of the Sith drew him in, but his motivation was for the greater good as opposed to individual power. That's way Palpatine saw in Anakin the true apprentice as opposed to Dooku. Anakin was purely selfish and more powerful because of it.
You had my agreement up until the Anakin was selfish part. Anakin fell because he loved his wife. He also brought balance to the force for a time. Two jedi / two sith. Be careful what you wish for.
Since we are spinning off a bit on Anakin, one thing I may have said before is I always found the transition he takes in "Revenge of the Sith" not quite satisfying. Ok, he sees a vision and wants to save Padme, but why does that all of a sudden turn him against Obi-Wan and all that he has trusted and known for so long? I know it's a movie and all, but it just seemed to happen way too fast and easy. I always thought that something more dramatic should have happened. Like if Padme had been killed due to the failure of Obi-Wan or the Jedi, that might have been better to push Anakin over the edge. Of course, she would have needed to have the twins first. Anyway, sorry for the divergence from Dooku.
I think the book explains it a little better and that maybe the Clone Wars will explain it more, but I will agree, the transition could have been done better. It was very abrupt and a little odd. Was the Emperor controlling him that much by then? Was the council too harsh on Annikan? I don't know. It was never explained well.
Is Dooku evil? Well, from what we're seeing from the Clone Wars and what we saw on screen, I think the answer is yes. Does he view himself that way? No. Few villains do.
King
I agree a lot with what Bryan said about Dooku, in the movies he came off more as an Idealist. When speaking with Obi-Wan in Episode 2, his reasons did not sound overly evil to me, just that he no longer felt the path of the Jedi was the best. The Clone wars exposes him as a bit more ruthless and evil well doing the work for Sideous.
In Episode 2 Anakin did show signs of frustration against Obi-Wan, in that he was being held back. In Episode 3 that was increased in feeling he was being held back by the Council. Given his perception that he was the chosen one, I can see over time where that would push to the dark side. Palpatine was also fueling those feelings as well, and add in some incidents with his Mom and Padme, I can see the turn. It might have felt more natural to be drawn out a bit more, and maybe they needed a few more scenes in Episode 3 highlighting the turn, as it does feel a little bit like a switch was turned on in him. I am hoping in the Clone Wars they touch a bit more on some of those feelings he had of being held back.
Good points Jeff. Yeah, being held back was part of it for Anakin. As far as Dooku, I think yeah maybe he had better intentions at first and got kind of swept up in things. I think part of it was how the Jedi had grown kind of stale and complacent over the years and Dooku didn't like what he was seeing. But making your new master a Sith Lord still has to be kind of evil I'd say.
Quote from: Just X on September 03, 2009, 06:55:25 PM
You had my agreement up until the Anakin was selfish part. Anakin fell because he loved his wife. He also brought balance to the force for a time. Two jedi / two sith. Be careful what you wish for.
No, I agree, that's what I mean by selfish. He wants to save Padme for himself, he's not as interested in the greater good. As such and being as strong in the Force as he was, Palpatine likely saw Anakin as the superior apprentice and set Dokuu up to die at the start of Ep.III
Quote from: Rico on September 04, 2009, 06:29:39 AM
Yeah, being held back was part of it for Anakin. As far as Dooku, I think yeah maybe he had better intentions at first and got kind of swept up in things. I think part of it was how the Jedi had grown kind of stale and complacent over the years and Dooku didn't like what he was seeing. But making your new master a Sith Lord still has to be kind of evil I'd say.
I believe that both could be said about these two characters and I agree with Jeff. Anakin was showing a troubled path with Obi-Wan, the council and himself - in not only this movie but from the first couple of movies prior. Which easily lead him to being taken down the dark path though a lack of patience and confidence in himself. It could be seen best when Obi often times reminded him of needing to be patient. IE Anakin always resented that when Ben said that to him.
Anakin did have one thing on his mind in Ep 2 and 3 and a bit in Ep1 - save those important to him but it was to a fault. This flaw left him vulnerable and because of that fear - in the end he was left feeling lost and alone. At the same time, his arrogance and clear desire to 'reach the top' without letting calm and patience steal him was also his fault.
Also, when he caved in finally to the Emperor he was crying, IE: showing that he realized what he had done and what remained of the good in Anakin at that point - framing it from a plot device POW - was lost and he inwardly knew it quite well.
Lucas could have taken different avenues to show this - he did try though - after he became Darth Vader - his first inquiry is about Padme. The answer pushes him over the edge further - everything important to him is gone. - listening to Palpatine and his impatience has cost him - hence he sees nothing for him any longer. The final scene at the end of 'Sith' reflects and encompasses all his failures - There is nothing left but to become evil.
I mean really you gotta ask yourself - if she had lived - what - at that point would he have done. "Thanks for the surgery guy I gotta go now. Wife's calling. Later?"
So one could speculate - what was trying to be conveyed was - these are the final hours of the 'good' (per say) Anakin's life until many years later when Luke confronted him.
Now, Duku, IMO, was a means to an end to show the outgoing apprentice - mirroring Bryan - he had outlived his usefulness and Palpatine needed fresh blood - that is obvious though - he wasn't meant to be a particularly deep character - but it is pretty much default that he may have gone through some transformation as well - such as Anakin - that lead him astray and to believe that what he was doing was right and what the council was doing was wrong. Hence allowing Palpatine to easily manipulate him.
Just my ramblings :D
Cheers
Crystal
It could be argued that Anakin as Vader still didn't see himself as evil. The world is a chaotic place. Someone needs to bring order. Jedi, who really should have gotten mental checkups for their willingness to slice off limbs are gone. This is a man torn by the guilt of killing wife and child. He gave up everything to save his wife only to find out he was the tool of her destruction. I don't think other life would mean much to him at that point, but bringing order to the universe might be a good thing to redeem yourself.
Quote from: Just X on September 04, 2009, 08:38:39 AM
It could be argued that Anakin as Vader still didn't see himself as evil. The world is a chaotic place. Someone needs to bring order. Jedi, who really should have gotten mental checkups for their willingness to slice off limbs are gone. This is a man torn by the guilt of killing wife and child. He gave up everything to save his wife only to find out he was the tool of her destruction. I don't think other life would mean much to him at that point, but bringing order to the universe might be a good thing to redeem yourself.
I agree to a point - I think the way that Lucas framed it - Anakin did realize what he did because he did care at the end of Sith and he reacted to it - but the seemingly coldness once he finds out Padame and his child are dead because he failed (in his view) afterwards seems to direct the idea that this is a man who knows there is no place left for him but where he is. Deep down in the furthest reaches of himself he shuts away the good parts of him because he has burned all his bridges.
Indication of that is what he says to Luke when his son confronts Vader in Jedi and Luke says:
'He feels the good still in him he has just - I think the line is - forgotten' - or something like that.
IE: Vader made himself forget the pain and agony of what he did and embraced the evil. He might have been looking for vindication but it seems unlikely considering what he does later. Plus he tells Luke before he dies.
"You were right - tell your sister you were right about me." There was still good deep inside of him.
:D Great thread everyone. :D
Thinking we should fire up the thread and call it Is Dooku or Anakin Evil, Really :luke
I've changed the thread title. Love the way it's gone.
Anakin, during the forgettable love scenes in Ep 2, expresses a desire for one person to rule the galaxy to avoid the complexities of government and political injustices. Padme expresses surprise saying that it sounds like a dictatership. Anakin makes light of it, but it shows where he is coming from. He isn't after power for himself. He has grown up very close to Papatine and it is obviously Palpatine or someone similar that he feels should control all governments. He is torn between this belief and the Jedi way (which is far from perfect). Mace Windu's decision to kill rather than arrest Palpatine is the straw that breaks the camels back turning Anakin.
I still believe that Dooku in Ep 1 and maybe Ep 2 believes he is doing the right thing. Seeing the same faults in the Jedi order that Qui Gon saw. The fact that Qui Gon is the first Jedi to return from death in spirit form shows his understanding is greater than the Jedi order. If Palpatine had not been around to manipulate Dooku, perhaps he could have been as powerful as Qui Gon was. I also think that at some point, Dooku realised the path he was on and just accepted it.
WARNING :offtopic I suppose I could just start a new thread but I'm lazy and this one kind of, sort of fits the bill.
Has it been revealed who Anakin's father was? Could Dooku have maybe.......? It's been said that the Force runs strong in certain family lines.
Quote from: ori-STUDFARM on September 04, 2009, 11:15:50 AM
Anakin, during the forgettable love scenes in Ep 2.....
I presume that you meant to write that ...speaking along that line lets be honest someone needed to pull Lucas aside and say "George...honey....you just need to get someone to doctor those scenes for ya." while patting him on the back soothingly. Some of them were downright painfull to watch. :-[
That is a very good point though about him stating that
Quote from: ori-STUDFARM on September 04, 2009, 11:15:50 AMhe expresses a desire for one person to rule the galaxy to avoid the complexities of government and political injustices. Padme expresses surprise saying that it sounds like a dictatorship. Anakin makes light of it, but it shows where he is coming from. He isn't after power for himself.
Far as Dooku is concerned being his Father - Anakins Mother admitted to Qui-gon that it was basically a immaculate-like conception - heading into a direction I don't even want to roam towards. :D
Suppose they could have picked a few backwater woman up and done some experimenting. LOL that sounds horrid...maybe the Mother is related to Dooku...that would allow for that possibility cause that would make Anakin his grandson. Course there has been no information leading to such a conclusion - I don't think...
Crystal
PS This has been a really interesting converation and I love hearing other opinions on it.
Quote from: ChadH on September 04, 2009, 11:27:45 AM
WARNING :offtopic I suppose I could just start a new thread but I'm lazy and this one kind of, sort of fits the bill.
Has it been revealed who Anakin's father was? Could Dooku have maybe.......? It's been said that the Force runs strong in certain family lines.
No official information has been released on Annikan's father. So far as I know, the EU hasn't even dared to touch on it. Will it ever be revealed? Probably not, if Lucas decided that Ep 1 didn't need it.
Beyond that, yeah, now reading this, you can see how Annikan started towards the dark side, it just wasn't spelled out for us. I very much noticed the bit of crying that he did and you almost felt sympathy towards him because he realized what he had done. Of course, if he really wanted to redeem himself it would have been nice if he had killed the emperor.
But then again, we wouldn't have episodes 4-6 now would we? (Don't you just hate that?)
King
I thought Anakins Mum had definatively said that there was no father and it was a Mary-esque type birth. Hang on.....was Lucas getting all anti-religious on us!? Was he saying Jesus belonged to the darkside....
(I am quite new around here. Trust me, if there is anyone religeous on here. I totally and 100% mean no offence by that. I am just joking)
Some think that Darth Plageius learned how to use the midichlorins to create life and used that power to impregnate Shmi. So Palpatine would have known all bout Anakin from before his birth. Interesting theory, better than the immaculate conception crap Lucas hoisted on us.
Quote from: Bryancd on September 04, 2009, 12:43:06 PM
Some think that Darth Plageius learned how to use the midichlorins to create life and used that power to impregnate Shmi. So Palpatine would have known all bout Anakin from before his birth. Interesting theory, better than the immaculate conception crap Lucas hoisted on us.
I think that Palpatine is Anakin's father. If you listen to the two stories, it seems like the student learned this talent from the master and the student then killed the master and so forth.
The way Palpatine presents the story, he should have the tools and the talent to create anakin. It would also serve his purposes for the chosen one. the man had more plans within plans than the Padishah Emperor.
Quote from: Just X on September 04, 2009, 01:07:53 PM
I think that Palpatine is Anakin's father. If you listen to the two stories, it seems like the student learned this talent from the master and the student then killed the master and so forth.
The way Palpatine presents the story, he should have the tools and the talent to create anakin. It would also serve his purposes for the chosen one. the man had more plans within plans than the Padishah Emperor.
Per say, His Father, yes I would have to agree 'if' that is what the intent was (to say that Palpatine was his creator) because they didn't really say how long ago Plageius died.
Anakin was fairly young in ep1 so a lot would depend on that. The you could say it was a horse race who had the intent first to create the uber-being if Plageius was still alive.
Additionally - why Shimi? Clearly women can be instilled in the force as well so whats not to say that she wasn't part of this, unknowingly. She could have had the ability and never used it or known about it use it etc... Leia didn't know she had abilities until she was much older.
So Shimi could have been used because she was force imbued she just didn't know it and combined with more midichlorins.
This is simply brilliant guys :troopersmile
Crystal
Quote from: Shelby Daelen on September 04, 2009, 01:18:43 PM
Quote from: Just X on September 04, 2009, 01:07:53 PM
I think that Palpatine is Anakin's father. If you listen to the two stories, it seems like the student learned this talent from the master and the student then killed the master and so forth.
The way Palpatine presents the story, he should have the tools and the talent to create anakin. It would also serve his purposes for the chosen one. the man had more plans within plans than the Padishah Emperor.
Per say, His Father, yes I would have to agree 'if' that is what the intent was (to say that Palpatine was his creator) because they didn't really say how long ago Plageius died.
Anakin was fairly young in ep1 so a lot would depend on that. The you could say it was a horse race who had the intent first to create the uber-being if Plageius was still alive.
Additionally - why Shimi? Clearly women can be instilled in the force as well so whats not to say that she wasn't part of this, unknowingly. She could have had the ability and never used it or known about it use it etc... Leia didn't know she had abilities until she was much younger.
So Shimi could have been used because she was force imbued she just didn't know it and combined with more midichlorins.
This is simply brilliant guys :troopersmile
Crystal
I'm thinking that Palpatine had to be a lord of the sith before Anakin was born. This would be the best way to establish how he was able to do so much within the first movie. He was controling both sides of the playing field and that had to take years to put into motion.
Quote from: Just X on September 04, 2009, 01:28:51 PM
I'm thinking that Palpatine had to be a lord of the sith before Anakin was born. This would be the best way to establish how he was able to do so much within the first movie. He was controling both sides of the playing field and that had to take years to put into motion.
Absolutely, still one never knows......:D I'd love to know what Palpatines background is too....
Quote from: Shelby Daelen on September 04, 2009, 02:02:16 PM
Quote from: Just X on September 04, 2009, 01:28:51 PM
I'm thinking that Palpatine had to be a lord of the sith before Anakin was born. This would be the best way to establish how he was able to do so much within the first movie. He was controling both sides of the playing field and that had to take years to put into motion.
Absolutely, still one never knows......:D I'd love to know what Palpatines background is too....
x3, I think he killed his Master to keep the secret for creating life and had a direct role in the creation of Anakin. In that respect I agree that he is Anakin's father.
I'm surprised there hasn't been more of a back story on the subject of Anakin's lineage. Perhaps Lucas was leaving a door open so he could re-invigorate the franchise with a new movie if need be. I think that I agree with the Palpatine as Anakin's father. It just seems more plausible IMHO.
Who knows what will be created next for the franchise.
Quote from: ChadH on September 04, 2009, 02:33:25 PM
I'm surprised there hasn't been more of a back story on the subject of Anakin's lineage. Perhaps Lucas was leaving a door open so he could re-invigorate the franchise with a new movie if need be. I think that I agree with the Palpatine as Anakin's father. It just seems more plausible IMHO.
No offense to Uncle George, but I don't think he has the planning to pull that off. Sure others can connect the dots, but then again I think that's why the books are richer than the movies because he only needs approve them and not write them.
The books on genres like this are usually always better because a writer is not as limited to how much the studios wants to pay and who they want to star in it and all those trappings. I mean they have other trappings but still you get the meaning. This is so fun :D
Quote from: Just X on September 04, 2009, 04:12:08 PM
Quote from: ChadH on September 04, 2009, 02:33:25 PM
I'm surprised there hasn't been more of a back story on the subject of Anakin's lineage. Perhaps Lucas was leaving a door open so he could re-invigorate the franchise with a new movie if need be. I think that I agree with the Palpatine as Anakin's father. It just seems more plausible IMHO.
No offense to Uncle George, but I don't think he has the planning to pull that off. Sure others can connect the dots, but then again I think that's why the books are richer than the movies because he only needs approve them and not write them.
Except that George L hasn't approved of any of the books himself here lately if what I heard from The Force Cast is true. I mean, its why one of the EU writers working on Star Wars books quit here recently due to continuity issues between her and The Clone Wars. If that is indeed true, then the books have less legitimacy.
I'm just speaking out loud of course.
As per Annikan's father being the Emperor, that does seem to make sense from a certain point of view, but then again it comes down to, why Shmi? It doesn't quite make sense on that part and how did Palpatine find her?
King
Quote from: Kinglinksr on September 05, 2009, 12:06:13 PM
Quote from: Just X on September 04, 2009, 04:12:08 PM
Quote from: ChadH on September 04, 2009, 02:33:25 PM
I'm surprised there hasn't been more of a back story on the subject of Anakin's lineage. Perhaps Lucas was leaving a door open so he could re-invigorate the franchise with a new movie if need be. I think that I agree with the Palpatine as Anakin's father. It just seems more plausible IMHO.
No offense to Uncle George, but I don't think he has the planning to pull that off. Sure others can connect the dots, but then again I think that's why the books are richer than the movies because he only needs approve them and not write them.
Except that George L hasn't approved of any of the books himself here lately if what I heard from The Force Cast is true. I mean, its why one of the EU writers working on Star Wars books quit here recently due to continuity issues between her and The Clone Wars. If that is indeed true, then the books have less legitimacy.
I'm just speaking out loud of course.
As per Annikan's father being the Emperor, that does seem to make sense from a certain point of view, but then again it comes down to, why Shmi? It doesn't quite make sense on that part and how did Palpatine find her?
King
Shimi is just a person that was used. She didn't have to be anyone special. Just a tool
If Palpatine did this manipulation of midiclorines and used Shmi - he would have had knowledge about Anakin - however he did not appear to know him or of him.
So one cannot simply dismiss Plagueis as the child's 'creator' especially since it was not established when Palpatine's Master died. That is really pivotal in this whole scheme of things. Palpatine could have lead Plagueis on for a long time before offing him.
Additionally just because Palpatine told that story about Plagueis doesn't mean it was true. He has proven himself to be a master manipulator. What better way to reel in the vulnerable Anakin than to give him empty promises of hope to save Padame.
:D
Very nice thread!
Are the two evil? In my opinion, yes. I doubt that Dooku sees himself as evil though; as far as he's concerned, the Jedi's philosophy & inability to be proactive has led to disorder & chaos; he sees the Sith as a means to restore order.
Anakin is a different matter. It seems to me that throughout the story, he's trying to convince himself that the choices he makes are for the greater good, but deep down, he doesn't buy it. He regrets each bridge he burns, but not until after the fact. In the end, he doesn't see any alternative but to embrace the Sith; its all he has left.
Both characters are evil. Dooku doesn't see himself that way, so I guess he sleeps easy at night. Anakin is torn over what he's made of his life, and is tormented by it.
Regarding Anakin's conception-
I think that Plagueis & Palpatine both had a hand in his creation through manipulation of midichlorians. I think Plagueis put the plan into motion, and Palpatine took the reigns after he killed him.