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The Perfect Sci Fi Woman (to me)

Started by LoneSpar, December 01, 2011, 09:53:42 PM

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moyer777

I'm not sure anyone finds them disturbing.  It's the objectifying and stereotyping of women that is in question.  Or at least that's what I'm getting from it.  For me, I'm a married man who wants to honor my wife.  I love her and I know it bothers her if I look at other women.  So, I do visit once in awhile this section but not as much as the others.  Not because I can't or that it disturbs me, just that I made a commitment to Amy a long time ago.  Some couples don't have a problem with it.

I have been and always will be, your friend.
Listen to our podcast each week http://www.takehimwithyou.com

spaltor

Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on December 02, 2011, 07:25:25 PM
Frankly, if any person, male or female, finds a fully clothed picture of a popular actor or actress so disturbing that they choose not to frequent these boards for that reason, then there's probably something else they're going to see here that disturbs them even worse and they probably are making the right decision not to participate.  They'd be missing out on a great group of people, of course, and it would be their great loss. 

Seriously, the sexiest picture posted today was from a G rated movie released in 1968! 

Wow.  Not what I said.

It's not a matter of "disturbing."  It's a matter of "uncomfortable."  When I, as a woman, see a community that has mostly male members displaying overly-sexualized photos of women, my reaction is to leave.  It gives the impression - however false it might be - that women and their opinions are not respected.  Imagine if you were checking out a board than had mostly female members.  And over on the sidebar was a mostly-naked, pretty provocative picture of Patrick Stewart or Nathan Fillion.  Would you stick around?

Though nothing too risque may have been uploaded today, there was certainly a "recent pic" displayed for most of today that was solely about cleavage.  And in that case, your definition of "fully clothed" must differ from mine.

For the fifth time: NO ONE DID ANYTHING WRONG.  Somehow, that point doesn't seem to be getting across.

I'm simply being honest about my experiences and how I happened to read a comment here. 

And I wanted to post a reminder - because this is a male-dominate forum - that women are around and could potentially be offended. 

I've been told over and over in the rebuttals here that people should be allowed to express their opinion.  That's is exactly what I am doing as well.  However, my opinion doesn't seem to be as valid for some of you.

Let me try to explain something else to you.  Once you have experienced discrimination of any kind - gender, race, sexual orientation, religion - you are more sensitive to it.  Yeah, I'm a woman.  I grew up in a very traditional church that wasn't sure what to do with young girl who spoke her mind and asked questions.  I was one of 3 girls in the advanced placement classes in high school and the only one to graduate in the top 10.  I was one of 2 women in my major at college.  I have been accused of getting graded easier because I am a woman, of getting priority treatment because of my breasts, and told that I only graduated because the professors took pity on me because a woman obviously wasn't smart enough to study chaotic dynamics.  Yes, all of that happened, and none of it is true. 

For a long time, these accusations made me ashamed of myself and my body and my identity as a woman.  They've put me on the defensive.  I've talked to other women who have experienced similar things. 

The simple truth is that things that you may not intend to be hurtful, CAN STILL BE HURTFUL.  And no one, in any situation online or in person, has any right to tell anyone else that they're not allowed to be hurt by something.

Women are surrounded by images and ideas of what they should be, that are created out of the fantasies of men.  Even models, in ads, are photoshopped to be smaller than a size 0.  Someone made a comment about how women used to not get many lines in movies?  They still done - women have 33% of the speaking roles in movies.  (http://www.slashfilm.com/women-buy-50-movie-tickets-33-speaking-roles-study-finds/)

The last thing I wanted was for this to blow up.  I wanted to make a simple request, from a community member to the community as a whole.  Be respectful.  Before you post something, think about whether you'd say it int he company or your mother or wife or daughter, and what their reaction might be.

I highly recommend that anyone reading this thread check out the documentary "Miss Representation."  It may give you a better idea about the unrealistic expectations and over-sexualization that women are dealing with even today.

So, I'm done guys.  If by asking for respect, I'm brushed off and continue to have my feelings and opinions disrespected by some on these boards, I guess I won't be back.  And, yes, that's how you alienate women. 

So, I'm done. 

I'll fulfill my Secret Santa obligation.  If any of you have me, don't feel obligated to send anything - I understand.

Those of you that I'm friends with off-board, I hope this won't change anything in our friendship.  See you around.

Ktrek

When I logged on and saw the original post to this thread I took the post as a tongue in cheek comment. Perhaps it was a bit sexist but the reaction to the joke is a little over the top. And women are not the only gender to be discriminated or objectified. I've experienced plenty of discrimination in my life but I don't allow it to bother me. Heck even being called a Trekkie most of the time is said in derision or at least condescendingly. Your feelings are your feelings. Are they legitimate and justified? Perhaps! But perhaps you also are making a mountain out of a molehill. When I showed this thread to me wife she rolled her eyes because she thought there was far to much overreaction to what she also took to be a statement in jest. Granted there are mostly men around here and I think your points about sensitivity are valid and should be respected but I think things could be said the other way as well and you maybe have a little more fun and not take life so seriously and especially personally.

Kevin
"Oh...Well, Who am I to argue with me?" Dr. Bashir - Visionary - Deep Space Nine

Jobydrone

QuoteMost of today, whenever I was on the boards, on the left hand side of my screen were photographs of women, wearing very little.  While I can avoid the "Babes & Hunks of Sci-Fi" part of the board, I cannot avoid the "Recent Pics."  I'll tell you honestly that those photographs make me uncomfortable.  Something as simple as that can be off-putting to women.  It give a FALSE impression of what's discussed on the boards, and if a woman is checking out the forum for the first time and sees that, she may go somewhere else

This is the part of your statement I was responding to, and I was referring to the hypothetical woman checking out the forum for the first time, not you personally.  Please don't take it that way. 
"I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal."  -Groucho Marx

Ktrek

One thing I would like to point out about the sidebar is that Rico has set up the site to turn that off or on. I have mine turned off and never see the pics unless I see them in the context of the thread they are a part of. You can either choose to hide the entire side or just minimize the pictures. If you want to hide the entire side you have to click the little white blocks on the upper right. One turns the left column off and the other turns the right. You can also just minimize sections you don't want to see when you come to the board. Your settings are saved until you clean out your cookies but the point is you do have "options". Rico is not making anyone see sidebar material they don't want to see.

Kevin
"Oh...Well, Who am I to argue with me?" Dr. Bashir - Visionary - Deep Space Nine

Jobydrone

#35
Quote from: moyer777 on December 02, 2011, 07:50:32 PM
I'm not sure anyone finds them disturbing.  It's the objectifying and stereotyping of women that is in question.  Or at least that's what I'm getting from it.  For me, I'm a married man who wants to honor my wife.  I love her and I know it bothers her if I look at other women.  So, I do visit once in awhile this section but not as much as the others.  Not because I can't or that it disturbs me, just that I made a commitment to Amy a long time ago.  Some couples don't have a problem with it.
Rick, I love you man and I'm seriously just trying to wrap my head around what you're saying, so please don't misinterpret my asking you to clarify as judgement.  With that in mind, I ask you how do you think your looking at Rico's postings from this section of the boards would betray the commitment you made when you married your wife?  Does privately appreciating the attractiveness of another human being break a vow you made?

Far and away the best thing about this community is that there are so many different people here, with all kinds of beliefs and backgrounds yet we all have a common frame of reference that brought us together.  I'm really just trying to understand because I seriously don't get it and I want to.
"I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal."  -Groucho Marx

Jobydrone

QuoteImagine if you were checking out a board than had mostly female members.  And over on the sidebar was a mostly-naked, pretty provocative picture of Patrick Stewart or Nathan Fillion.  Would you stick around?
Seriously? Sign me up ;) I'd be there on a daily basis.
"I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal."  -Groucho Marx

Jen

I wrote this, before Sue's las post. I will try to smooth things over with her, but after the jokes that followed her exit I'm think I let her go.

I read the comment to Dave, my husband, to get his honest opinion. Finding the initial comment humorous, he chuckled...then he said "yeah that was sexist."

Chris, I did not say men could not want equality for women. We did a whole series on Anomaly about how women are treated in sci-fi and fantasy....and included the opinions of a variety of women. We were shocked when we got reamed afterward on a blog, written by two chicks who thought we include men too much on our show, they didnt like the inclusion of a male voice reading the definition of Anomaly at the start of our episodes, and apparently we talk too much about authors who just so happened to be male. They seemed to take great offense to men in general. We think that is sexist too. They said they felt the need to warn their liseners about that aspect of our Anomaly. I'm thinking, playing Josh Wedon's Equality Now speech on our show made their heads spin. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. I did not say men could not be for equality. I know that is far from the truth.

I don't like when I am told how to interpret something. I said I thought the comment was a bit sexist.  It's an opinion.  When i said you are not a woman, I meant you can't experience my feelings. it's not being over sensitive, Ktrek...it's being honest. I thought we could do that here in a respectful manner.

When I we were growing up, my dad called my brother "boy" in a very thick Texas drawl. I began to mimic my dad, accent and all, by calling my brother and kids his age "boy". It was all very innocent and light-hearted. One day, I was working at a pet store and a young kid came in with his father. Without thinking, I said "hey boy" and  gave the child a high five. It just so happened that the kid was African American. His dad gave me an "eat worms and die" look. It was then I realized how "hey boy" sounded to him. It did not occur to me until then. I did not intend it the way he took it, but nevertheless he was offended and who was I to tell him he was misinterpreting the words? It wasn't about whether I was right or wrong or how minor the greeting was or wasn't. He took offense and I realized that there was a history that went along with the word that to me simlpy meant "male child" but to him meant something racist. I didn't think he was over-reacting. He didn't know me and he drew the wrong conclusion, but that didn't matter. I am the last person to make racial slurs, but I still felt bad about saying what I said. Does that make sense? I

I am not asking for an apology. I am not demanding draconian rules about how people talk on the forum. We are just telling you it sounded off to our feminine ears. However it was intended, it obviosly struck a cord. Is it a serious infraction worthy of a ban? Of course not. But Sue wanted to say, "hey that sounded wrong to my ears". I think that has been done here before and no one stomped off or was kicked off the board. We just learned from it and we are all still pals.

The character who sparked the conversation a was a mute bomb shell. She was incapable of speaking for most, if not all of the movie...but she looked hot. She wasn't quiet because she was reserved or shy. She couldn't form words and communicate. Thats what I know and that's what formed my opinion about the statement made. I wasn't offended either. I was just agreeing with Sue's observation.

I will repeat that Sue has said in several replies, and in bold text, She did not take personal offense until now. I am trying not to.   :shocked
Founding co-host of the Anomaly Podcast
AnomalyPodcast.com
@AnoamlyPodcast

moyer777

It's a biblical issue Joby.  Amy was raised in the church and there is a passage where Jesus says that if we look at a women with lust in our heart then it is just as if we have committed adultery.   So that is where we get the whole idea of not making it a habit of looking at others for the sole purpose of pleasure.  :).   I didn't always believe this way as I didn't know anything about the Bible growing up.  So when we committed to each other we promised to do our best to honor each other by not lusting after others.  Now, we aren't perfect, and we don't always succeed, but we do our best.  Does that make sense?  I don't expect everyone to believe that way. 

I have been and always will be, your friend.
Listen to our podcast each week http://www.takehimwithyou.com

Jobydrone

I guess the "jokes" you're referring to are my posts, Jen? If I came across as insensitive to Sue and her feelings I surely didnt mean to.  I would never mock someone's heartfelt post as you seem to think I did.  I know I don't want to see ANYONE leave here with bad feelings for any reason, especially over something I might have said in a dumb attempt to lighten the mood with humor.   I've already apologized once and I'll do it again right now, and even say to Sue please don't go.  We can get through this with friendships intact. I really am very sorry if I hurt anyone or came across as mean spirited or insensitive.
"I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal."  -Groucho Marx

Jen

It's okay, Joby. I know you've apologized several times... . Your a cool guy.
Founding co-host of the Anomaly Podcast
AnomalyPodcast.com
@AnoamlyPodcast

Jobydrone

Quote from: moyer777 on December 02, 2011, 09:39:06 PM
It's a biblical issue Joby.  Amy was raised in the church and there is a passage where Jesus says that if we look at a women with lust in our heart then it is just as if we have committed adultery.   So that is where we get the whole idea of not making it a habit of looking at others for the sole purpose of pleasure.  :).   I didn't always believe this way as I didn't know anything about the Bible growing up.  So when we committed to each other we promised to do our best to honor each other by not lusting after others.  Now, we aren't perfect, and we don't always succeed, but we do our best.  Does that make sense?  I don't expect everyone to believe that way. 
It does make sense, thanks.  It would be a hard standard to live up to, for me.  I think I'd really hate feeling like I betrayed my wife every time I looked at a pretty girl and had an impure thought.
"I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal."  -Groucho Marx

LoneSpar

WOW!!  I didn't mean to cause such a stir.  I in no way meant it to be bad.  I even worded the "quiet" as I did instead of saying something much more derogatory.  Women have as much worth as a man In this world, but when i watch a Sci Fi show, I do not mind Eye Candy.  I have thought Linda Harrison was beautiful since the first time I saw POTA.  More clothes wouldn't change my opinion!!!
So My sincere apologies for any offense I may have caused, it was not the intention.
Starbuck IS Awesome!!!!!!!!

X

Quote from: Jen on December 02, 2011, 09:28:46 PM

When I we were growing up, my dad called my brother "boy" in a very thick Texas drawl. I began to mimic my dad, accent and all, by calling my brother and kids his age "boy". It was all very innocent and light-hearted. One day, I was working at a pet store and a young kid came in with his father. Without thinking, I said "hey boy" and  gave the child a high five. It just so happened that the kid was African American. His dad gave me an "eat worms and die" look. It was then I realized how "hey boy" sounded to him. It did not occur to me until then. I did not intend it the way he took it, but nevertheless he was offended and who was I to tell him he was misinterpreting the words? It wasn't about whether I was right or wrong or how minor the greeting was or wasn't. He took offense and I realized that there was a history that went along with the word that to me simlpy meant "male child" but to him meant something racist. I didn't think he was over-reacting. He didn't know me and he drew the wrong conclusion, but that didn't matter. I am the last person to make racial slurs, but I still felt bad about saying what I said. Does that make sense?
I totally understand where you are coming from and I've seen and experienced the same situations that you're talking about. I've just taken the other side when it's happened. I know far too many people that get upset over things like you described and I've actually put friends in their place for taking offense to something that isn't meant to be offending. I know everyone has their own levels of sensitivity to things, but I've long ago learned that it's not what people say, it's how they say it. This is just my personal view and I know that, but I'm kind of torn in this situation. I agree that we shouldn't discriminate or make anyone feel uncomfortable at any time, but at the same time, we can't be responsible for everyone's comfort levels and self edit things that might cause offense.

Asking to place the bar on what you might say around female family members doesn't create a universal standard because not every woman will find offense in something that another woman does. It's a very tricky road to navigate and I personally don't know how to navigate it other than how I usually do things. If something wasn't meant to be offensive, I try not to take offense.

I know many things were said about the Babes and hunk thing and I know that there are a lot of women upset about the whole women image given to us by the media. I respect and understand that, but like to take this moment to point out that men suffer the same bias from the male images in media. Most of us are not rocking 6 packs (other than the ones you buy) and those images are something that we have to compete against. Then again, I can be blase when it comes to things like the Babe and Hunk section. I never really follow it or pay attention to it so I've never found anything offending. From what I have noticed, these are pretty much standard images that are circulating in the media. I know that there are a lot of self-image issues going on in the country, but I'm really more focused on making sure that my girls have the tools and self-respect to where that doesn't become an issue for them.

I hope that what I posted wasn't taken to be offensive because that's not what I was trying to do.  I know that this comes down to a respect issue, but how do we do that when we don't know what someone might find offensive until after it's posted? I just wish that it didn't explode like this because I don't think anyone here is trying to purposely offend anyone.

X

Hey Rick, thanks for explaining your position and I gotta tell you that I respect it. I kinda know where you're coming from about respecting the wishes of the wife. My wife doesn't really care about who I look at and I think that's part of the reason that I'm not ogling anyone. I can appreciate a good looking person ( I also appreciate smart people for their brains), but I'm only sexually attracted to my wife.