I have always thought of Nova from Planet of the Apes, Linda Harrison, as the perfect sci fi woman.
She is extremely good looking and quiet!
Nice choice - and a great movie! I recall reading someplace that she was the Producers girl friend.. :)
An ex of mine has similar features ... really similar features ... kinda spooky actually, but yeah, she's nice on the eyes.
I prefer my sci fi women to be scrappier, like Starbuck :)
Quote from: billybob476 on December 02, 2011, 06:07:34 AM
I prefer my sci fi women to be scrappier, like Starbuck :)
I like my women both sci-fi and IRL to have a bit of crazy to them. Not too much crazy, but a little edge of crazy is so damned sexy.
Quote from: billybob476 on December 02, 2011, 06:07:34 AM
I prefer my sci fi women to be scrappier, like Starbuck :)
Yeah, but the whole cigar smoking thing...YUCK!
Quote from: LoneSpar on December 01, 2011, 09:53:42 PM
She is extremely good looking and quiet!
LMFAO @ the quiet part.
Quote from: LoneSpar on December 01, 2011, 09:53:42 PM
I have always thought of Nova from Planet of the Apes, Linda Harrison, as the perfect sci fi woman.
She is extremely good looking and quiet!
Please keep in mind that there
are women that frequent these boards. Although you probably didn't intend it this way, that statement can come across very derogatory. It's as if you're saying "women only have worth if they're traditionally attractive, scantily clad, and quiet."
I don't want to start anything here, and I really struggled about even posting this message. Especially because this is generally a very accepting and open community. But this statement was eating away at me, and I couldn't stop thinking about it this morning.
Again, I know that you likely did not intend this meaning and I'm really not a crazy feminist, but that is how it reads to me.
Please be a little more careful about the way you word that type of thing. Or post things like this in the "Babes of Sci-Fi" section, which the women here (at least, the ones I've spoken to) tend to avoid.
Thank you.
(Mods, I understand if you feel the need to remove this post. I just couldn't get it out of my mind.)
Moved to the babes/hunks forum. No worries!
Quote from: billybob476 on December 02, 2011, 06:07:34 AM
I prefer my sci fi women to be scrappier, like Starbuck :)
Starbuck is my wife's hero. :) She even named her new bike "Starbuck" to make sure it was the appropriate level of bad ass. :)
Quote from: spaltor on December 02, 2011, 07:24:58 AM
Quote from: LoneSpar on December 01, 2011, 09:53:42 PM
I have always thought of Nova from Planet of the Apes, Linda Harrison, as the perfect sci fi woman.
She is extremely good looking and quiet!
Please keep in mind that there are women that frequent these boards. Although you probably didn't intend it this way, that statement can come across very derogatory. It's as if you're saying "women only have worth if they're traditionally attractive, scantily clad, and quiet."
I don't want to start anything here, and I really struggled about even posting this message. Especially because this is generally a very accepting and open community. But this statement was eating away at me, and I couldn't stop thinking about it this morning.
Again, I know that you likely did not intend this meaning and I'm really not a crazy feminist, but that is how it reads to me.
Please be a little more careful about the way you word that type of thing. Or post things like this in the "Babes of Sci-Fi" section, which the women here (at least, the ones I've spoken to) tend to avoid.
Thank you.
(Mods, I understand if you feel the need to remove this post. I just couldn't get it out of my mind.)
never feel like you can't express your opinions or thoughts on this forum, ever. :) And I think your sensitivity to the comment is totally understandable and I agree perhaps the intent was more benign.
Quote from: Bryancd on December 02, 2011, 07:44:58 AM
Quote from: billybob476 on December 02, 2011, 06:07:34 AM
I prefer my sci fi women to be scrappier, like Starbuck :)
Starbuck is my wife's hero. :) She even named her new bike "Starbuck" to make sure it was the appropriate level of bad ass. :)
Apollo is my wife's hero :)
@Spaltor
I'd be the first person standing up in protest if your post got removed! I apologize from the bottom of my heart if you were offended by my comment, and please let me say that my wife's big mouth is one of her most endearing qualities that I'd never try to change even if there was the slightest possibility that I could. I knew what I was in for when I married her...(sort of)
Quote from: spaltor on December 02, 2011, 07:24:58 AM
Quote from: LoneSpar on December 01, 2011, 09:53:42 PM
I have always thought of Nova from Planet of the Apes, Linda Harrison, as the perfect sci fi woman.
She is extremely good looking and quiet!
Please keep in mind that there are women that frequent these boards. Although you probably didn't intend it this way, that statement can come across very derogatory. It's as if you're saying "women only have worth if they're traditionally attractive, scantily clad, and quiet."
I don't want to start anything here, and I really struggled about even posting this message. Especially because this is generally a very accepting and open community. But this statement was eating away at me, and I couldn't stop thinking about it this morning.
Again, I know that you likely did not intend this meaning and I'm really not a crazy feminist, but that is how it reads to me.
Please be a little more careful about the way you word that type of thing. Or post things like this in the "Babes of Sci-Fi" section, which the women here (at least, the ones I've spoken to) tend to avoid.
Thank you.
(Mods, I understand if you feel the need to remove this post. I just couldn't get it out of my mind.)
I understand where you are coming from, but I saw it as something other than what you saw. I saw it as a tongue in cheek joke about women having to be quiet in days and films of yore. I also don't think that being quite is something offensive. Some people regardless of gender can range on the quiet side. I know plenty of people that are attracted to the quiet time from both sides of the gender aisle and I'm not seeing the same offense that you are. I do understand where you might get offended, but we have to make a lot of assumptions on the meaning of what was written for that. Sometimes, we look for hidden meaning when things should be taken at face value and at face value, there is really nothing at all wrong with being attracted to pretty and quiet women. There are many out there and I honestly think it's by choice and not because they are feeling repressed and that they can't speak their minds.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but I do respect what you had to say and I can see your point.
I'm pretty sure LoneSpar was making a little joke based on Nova having very few words in the film. Just keep in mind that the "intent" of any statement on a forum is sometimes a tricky thing to read.
P.S. Oh, and for the record I think everyone here know's who my favorite Sci-Fi woman is. A certain Viper pilot who is never quiet. ;)
Quote from: spaltor on December 02, 2011, 07:24:58 AM
Quote from: LoneSpar on December 01, 2011, 09:53:42 PM
I have always thought of Nova from Planet of the Apes, Linda Harrison, as the perfect sci fi woman.
She is extremely good looking and quiet!
Please keep in mind that there are women that frequent these boards. Although you probably didn't intend it this way, that statement can come across very derogatory. It's as if you're saying "women only have worth if they're traditionally attractive, scantily clad, and quiet."
I don't want to start anything here, and I really struggled about even posting this message. Especially because this is generally a very accepting and open community. But this statement was eating away at me, and I couldn't stop thinking about it this morning.
Again, I know that you likely did not intend this meaning and I'm really not a crazy feminist, but that is how it reads to me.
Please be a little more careful about the way you word that type of thing. Or post things like this in the "Babes of Sci-Fi" section, which the women here (at least, the ones I've spoken to) tend to avoid.
Thank you.
(Mods, I understand if you feel the need to remove this post. I just couldn't get it out of my mind.)
Agreed Sue.
What if girls like quiet guys hmm??
;)
Nah, but I get what you said Sue. But there are people who are loud and people who tend to be more reserved and that's how I viewed the comment.
King
Quote from: Rico on December 02, 2011, 08:37:46 AM
Just keep in mind that the "intent" of any statement on a forum is sometimes a tricky thing to read.
That's exactly my point. As I said before, I'm sure than the intent was not one of offense. However, an "innocent joke" to one person can be hurtful to another. That's true in all aspects of life (like the recent court case about someone saying "he should have kept her barefoot and pregnant" in the workplace). However, it is especially true on the internet, where others are only reading your words instead of hearing your inflections and seeing your expressions.
There was a thread on the forum a while back that basically asked the question "Why aren't there more women on the boards?". This is why. Women tend to face a lot of prejudice in fandom, in their careers, and in life. In general, it seems like we often have to defend ourselves, our interests, and our right to speak our mind. And a simple, throw-away comment - even it if was not intended to cause any harm or offense - can keep women from joining a community.
Let me make it clear that I did
not take any personal offense. After the last few months of trying to break down some gender stereotypes on Anomaly, the statement bugged me, and I felt the need to point out how the comment could be interpreted by the women on the boards.
And I thank you all for understanding. :)
Quote from: X on December 02, 2011, 08:20:45 AM
I understand where you are coming from, but I saw it as something other than what you saw. I saw it as a tongue in cheek joke about women having to be quiet in days and films of yore. I also don't think that being quite is something offensive. Some people regardless of gender can range on the quiet side. I know plenty of people that are attracted to the quiet time from both sides of the gender aisle and I'm not seeing the same offense that you are. I do understand where you might get offended, but we have to make a lot of assumptions on the meaning of what was written for that. Sometimes, we look for hidden meaning when things should be taken at face value and at face value, there is really nothing at all wrong with being attracted to pretty and quiet women. There are many out there and I honestly think it's by choice and not because they are feeling repressed and that they can't speak their minds.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but I do respect what you had to say and I can see your point.
First, thank you to those who agreed with Sue and are cool with us speaking our minds here. This is a good community and I like you guys. I don't think the comment was meant to hurt anyone. I don't know LoneSpar, but I'm willing to bet he did not mean to cause controversy with his post. He likes the character and he made a comment that may or may not have been misinterpreted...
That said, if a woman tells you she read the comment a certain way, then she took it a certain way. Sue is not forum newb. Plus she's an avid reader and a writer. She's also responsible for communicating with customers on the job as well as with listeners of her show. She is aware that words can be read one way, though they maybe meant another. I am confident that she knows this.
Of course you saw it other than the way she saw it, your dude. Chris, I consider you a friend. You're a smart guy and you're very accepting of people. But, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar..."??? I know you went on to say you understand her point, but what if the comment was different and people read it as racist? Could you still dismiss it in that way?
I agree with Sue. And since she brought it up, I'm personally I am not a fan of the "Babe's and Hunks" sections either. Granted, this is a male dominated forum and I understand that some guys like that sort of topic and they're going to say things about female characters and the actresses that portray them. We just avoid the section.
I read the "extremely good looking and quiet" line in the original post as being a bit sexist, whether it was referring to "women in films of yore" or not. There are jokes made all the time about women talking too much. Of course we're going to interpreted the statement the way we did, however he intended it.
I try to ignore online debates like this, because I don't like to get into arguments. Conflict stresses me out. :) But honestly I think I'm more annoyed by your reply to Sue than the joke itself, X. You're not a woman. You can't tell her that she shouldn't "read into" things. It sounded condescending. Okay, I think I've said enough about it in public. If anyone wants to PM me about it, I'd be happy to take it outside. ;)
Once more, I like you guys and you have a tight-knit community here. You don't flame people, you try to be accepting of all and you form lasting friendships with the individuals you meet here. That's why I feel like I can jump in on this conversation. If it were posted on any other board, aside from Anomaly or TrekSF, I'd refrain from speaking up because I'd have an anxiety attack over the defensive replies posted afterward.
Sue -
I can understand what you are saying, but I still believe their was no harmful intent in the comment to begin with. The other thing I must mention is I have been on a great many internet forums over the years. I would take our community here and say that we have some of the most understanding, caring, thoughtful, intelligent and open minded people around. I greatly prefer the group here over any other place I've ever visited - big or small. You have only been around a couple years but we had a few "bad eggs" in the earlier days and they were quickly shown the door by me. I have to take a slight issue with your comment that the reason more women are not here is because of comments like in the start of this thread. That would imply this type of thing or type of comment happens quite often - which is simply not true. I take a great deal of pride and feel responsible (to some degree) as to what happens on the forum. So, as long as I'm here I really don't think you should feel we don't have your feelings or gender in mind when chatting on the forum. I hope I haven't made this more that it is, but I felt your comments needed a response from me about this issue.
Why am I now picturing Sue barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen hen pecking some poor slob to death while smoking a cigar? :biggrin
Thanks you and goodnight, try the veal! :eekout
Sigh... :smilie_nono:
Not helping Bryan.
Hey, I was the first one who popped in to support her initial comment so.... :smilie_nono:
Let me again say that: I am NOT upset. I am NOT angry at anyone. I am NOT accusing anyone of anything.
And I do NOT want to make anyone else upset.
My point is: Although something may not be intended as hurtful, it can still be hurtful.
Rico, you're right. I was not intending to imply that this happens all the time. It doesn't. At all. As I said earlier, this is a very welcoming and open community. And I've said over and over that it's a great set of amazing people on the forums who are helpful, friendly, and supportive.
But I was not referring specifically to comments in posts. Many things can contribute to discomfort. Most of today, whenever I was on the boards, on the left hand side of my screen were photographs of women, wearing very little. While I can avoid the "Babes & Hunks of Sci-Fi" part of the board, I cannot avoid the "Recent Pics." I'll tell you honestly that those photographs make me uncomfortable. Something as simple as that can be off-putting to women. It give a FALSE impression of what's discussed on the boards, and if a woman is checking out the forum for the first time and sees that, she may go somewhere else.
It's true when Jen said. As men, you can't know how a woman will interpret or react to something. So, you may have no idea that something could be taken a way that wasn't intended. I don't want to start a fight. My goal was to point out - in a friendly way - that the comment posted could be taken a different way that was intended. I didn't want for this to become the issue that it has.
I hope we can all learn from in and move forward. I love you guys, and I don't want to damage any relationships.
And just in case, here's a comic that may better explain the point I'm trying to make.
Again, I see your point and I believe you see mine. BUT, I don't want to control this place with an iron fist either. In my mind I have line that if someone crosses it on the forum I will talk to them and try and resolve the issue. What took place in this thread is not over that line - not really even close. I want people to feel somewhat free to joke around a little and have a good time here. That is what I mean by intent. In my day to day life in the "real world" unless someone gets in my face about something and makes it personal I really don't care what people say about anything. People have a right to voice their views and opinions - at least in a good portion of the world. I know some people get bothered by a lot more than I do by things that happen or are said. Men and women both. I have a fairly thick skin for the most part. Anyway, I guess that's all I have to add at this point.
No one ever answers my questions these days :(
King
Thanks, Rico. I do believe we're making the same points. No line was crossed. No one was attacked. And I'm certainly not asking for censorship of any kind on the boards. All I wanted to do was bring up a point for thought and discussion, and I think there was a good one.
I feel safe on these boards. Which is why I even posted in this thread to begin with, without fear of being flamed or yelled at or anything else.
Quote from: Jen on December 02, 2011, 02:55:34 PM
Quote from: X on December 02, 2011, 08:20:45 AM
I understand where you are coming from, but I saw it as something other than what you saw. I saw it as a tongue in cheek joke about women having to be quiet in days and films of yore. I also don't think that being quite is something offensive. Some people regardless of gender can range on the quiet side. I know plenty of people that are attracted to the quiet time from both sides of the gender aisle and I'm not seeing the same offense that you are. I do understand where you might get offended, but we have to make a lot of assumptions on the meaning of what was written for that. Sometimes, we look for hidden meaning when things should be taken at face value and at face value, there is really nothing at all wrong with being attracted to pretty and quiet women. There are many out there and I honestly think it's by choice and not because they are feeling repressed and that they can't speak their minds.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but I do respect what you had to say and I can see your point.
Of course you saw it other than the way she saw it, your dude. Chris, I consider you a friend. You're a smart guy and you're very accepting of people. But, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar..."??? I know you went on to say you understand her point, but what if the comment was different and people read it as racist? Could you still dismiss it in that way?
I actually think that you bring up a good point. One that I can answer with a conservation that I had only hours ago today.
My father brought to my attention of something written on a rock on Mitt Romney's property today. He wasn't happy with what was written and thought it was connected to the views of Mitt. His reason being that if it was on Mitt's property then Mitt knew about it and should have done something else he quietly supported what was written.
My view was something completely different. I learned what was written and where it was located and my first reaction was annoyance with the words, but my second reaction was to take a step back and not blame Mitt, who I don't like, for something that he might not be a part of. Instead of connecting the words on the rock with the views of Mitt. I didn't have enough information to make a decision, so my decision was to not blame someone for something that they might not be a part of. The way I think isn't something that I turn on or off. I try to see comment as neutral until proven differently. There is nothing at all wrong with liking beautiful and quiet women. It's when we attach other preconceived ideas that it can become a problem.
As to if the comment was racist or something like that, I can say this: Everyday people say things that can be taken as something not intended. I try hard as hell to look at intent before I judge those comments. I personally hate when people take slight over some simple comment and assume it to be racist when the person speaking or saying the comment didn't intend it.
At the end of the day, I can say that I don't try to be tolerant, I try to be understanding and accepting. I also don't have any problems telling someone that their comments were wrong. I might not be a woman, but I was raised by one, married to one, and working hard to raise one. Not being a woman doesn't mean that I can't see or fight against sexism. I don't have to be a woman to want equality for women. I don't have to be gay to want the same for those that are. My comment about a cigar is exactly that. The words by themselves and in the context they were written are not wrong or hurtful. It's when we start attaching our ideas of what those words mean that they can be taken out of context and assumed to have other intent.
If I saw something wrong, I would say so. As I said in my previous post, I didn't agree with what Sue inferred, but I did understand her position. I'm sure that we can empathize with a view we don't share, but at the same time, I said what I said because I didn't see malicious intent from LoneSpar. If there was intent there, you can be 100% assured that I would have been the first in line to say something.
How did I miss all this? well you probably know how I feel about all this. When I was younger I was of a different opinion, now after 25+ years of marriage I think differently. My wife is complex, my daughter is too, and they let me know what they think about stuff. That is a good thing.
Frankly, if any person, male or female, finds a fully clothed picture of a popular actor or actress so disturbing that they choose not to frequent these boards for that reason, then there's probably something else they're going to see here that disturbs them even worse and they probably are making the right decision not to participate. They'd be missing out on a great group of people, of course, and it would be their great loss.
Seriously, the sexiest picture posted today was from a G rated movie released in 1968!
I'm not sure anyone finds them disturbing. It's the objectifying and stereotyping of women that is in question. Or at least that's what I'm getting from it. For me, I'm a married man who wants to honor my wife. I love her and I know it bothers her if I look at other women. So, I do visit once in awhile this section but not as much as the others. Not because I can't or that it disturbs me, just that I made a commitment to Amy a long time ago. Some couples don't have a problem with it.
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on December 02, 2011, 07:25:25 PM
Frankly, if any person, male or female, finds a fully clothed picture of a popular actor or actress so disturbing that they choose not to frequent these boards for that reason, then there's probably something else they're going to see here that disturbs them even worse and they probably are making the right decision not to participate. They'd be missing out on a great group of people, of course, and it would be their great loss.
Seriously, the sexiest picture posted today was from a G rated movie released in 1968!
Wow. Not what I said.
It's not a matter of "disturbing." It's a matter of "uncomfortable." When I, as a woman, see a community that has mostly male members displaying overly-sexualized photos of women, my reaction is to leave. It gives the impression - however false it might be - that women and their opinions are not respected. Imagine if you were checking out a board than had mostly female members. And over on the sidebar was a mostly-naked, pretty provocative picture of Patrick Stewart or Nathan Fillion. Would you stick around?
Though nothing too risque may have been uploaded today, there was certainly a "recent pic" displayed for most of today that was solely about cleavage. And in that case, your definition of "fully clothed" must differ from mine.
For the fifth time: NO ONE DID ANYTHING WRONG. Somehow, that point doesn't seem to be getting across.
I'm simply being honest about my experiences and how I happened to read a comment here.
And I wanted to post a reminder - because this is a male-dominate forum - that women are around and could potentially be offended.
I've been told over and over in the rebuttals here that people should be allowed to express their opinion. That's is exactly what I am doing as well. However, my opinion doesn't seem to be as valid for some of you.
Let me try to explain something else to you. Once you have experienced discrimination of any kind - gender, race, sexual orientation, religion - you are more sensitive to it. Yeah, I'm a woman. I grew up in a very traditional church that wasn't sure what to do with young girl who spoke her mind and asked questions. I was one of 3 girls in the advanced placement classes in high school and the only one to graduate in the top 10. I was one of 2 women in my major at college. I have been accused of getting graded easier because I am a woman, of getting priority treatment because of my breasts, and told that I only graduated because the professors took pity on me because a woman obviously wasn't smart enough to study chaotic dynamics. Yes, all of that happened, and none of it is true.
For a long time, these accusations made me ashamed of myself and my body and my identity as a woman. They've put me on the defensive. I've talked to other women who have experienced similar things.
The simple truth is that things that you may not intend to be hurtful, CAN STILL BE HURTFUL. And no one, in any situation online or in person, has any right to tell anyone else that they're not allowed to be hurt by something.
Women are surrounded by images and ideas of what they should be, that are created out of the fantasies of men. Even models, in ads, are photoshopped to be smaller than a size 0. Someone made a comment about how women used to not get many lines in movies? They still done - women have 33% of the speaking roles in movies. (http://www.slashfilm.com/women-buy-50-movie-tickets-33-speaking-roles-study-finds/ (http://www.slashfilm.com/women-buy-50-movie-tickets-33-speaking-roles-study-finds/))
The last thing I wanted was for this to blow up. I wanted to make a simple request, from a community member to the community as a whole. Be respectful. Before you post something, think about whether you'd say it int he company or your mother or wife or daughter, and what their reaction might be.
I highly recommend that anyone reading this thread check out the documentary "Miss Representation." It may give you a better idea about the unrealistic expectations and over-sexualization that women are dealing with even today.
So, I'm done guys. If by asking for respect, I'm brushed off and continue to have my feelings and opinions disrespected by some on these boards, I guess I won't be back. And, yes, that's how you alienate women.
So, I'm done.
I'll fulfill my Secret Santa obligation. If any of you have me, don't feel obligated to send anything - I understand.
Those of you that I'm friends with off-board, I hope this won't change anything in our friendship. See you around.
When I logged on and saw the original post to this thread I took the post as a tongue in cheek comment. Perhaps it was a bit sexist but the reaction to the joke is a little over the top. And women are not the only gender to be discriminated or objectified. I've experienced plenty of discrimination in my life but I don't allow it to bother me. Heck even being called a Trekkie most of the time is said in derision or at least condescendingly. Your feelings are your feelings. Are they legitimate and justified? Perhaps! But perhaps you also are making a mountain out of a molehill. When I showed this thread to me wife she rolled her eyes because she thought there was far to much overreaction to what she also took to be a statement in jest. Granted there are mostly men around here and I think your points about sensitivity are valid and should be respected but I think things could be said the other way as well and you maybe have a little more fun and not take life so seriously and especially personally.
Kevin
QuoteMost of today, whenever I was on the boards, on the left hand side of my screen were photographs of women, wearing very little. While I can avoid the "Babes & Hunks of Sci-Fi" part of the board, I cannot avoid the "Recent Pics." I'll tell you honestly that those photographs make me uncomfortable. Something as simple as that can be off-putting to women. It give a FALSE impression of what's discussed on the boards, and if a woman is checking out the forum for the first time and sees that, she may go somewhere else
This is the part of your statement I was responding to, and I was referring to the hypothetical woman checking out the forum for the first time, not you personally. Please don't take it that way.
One thing I would like to point out about the sidebar is that Rico has set up the site to turn that off or on. I have mine turned off and never see the pics unless I see them in the context of the thread they are a part of. You can either choose to hide the entire side or just minimize the pictures. If you want to hide the entire side you have to click the little white blocks on the upper right. One turns the left column off and the other turns the right. You can also just minimize sections you don't want to see when you come to the board. Your settings are saved until you clean out your cookies but the point is you do have "options". Rico is not making anyone see sidebar material they don't want to see.
Kevin
Quote from: moyer777 on December 02, 2011, 07:50:32 PM
I'm not sure anyone finds them disturbing. It's the objectifying and stereotyping of women that is in question. Or at least that's what I'm getting from it. For me, I'm a married man who wants to honor my wife. I love her and I know it bothers her if I look at other women. So, I do visit once in awhile this section but not as much as the others. Not because I can't or that it disturbs me, just that I made a commitment to Amy a long time ago. Some couples don't have a problem with it.
Rick, I love you man and I'm seriously just trying to wrap my head around what you're saying, so please don't misinterpret my asking you to clarify as judgement. With that in mind, I ask you how do you think your looking at Rico's postings from this section of the boards would betray the commitment you made when you married your wife? Does privately appreciating the attractiveness of another human being break a vow you made?
Far and away the best thing about this community is that there are so many different people here, with all kinds of beliefs and backgrounds yet we all have a common frame of reference that brought us together. I'm really just trying to understand because I seriously don't get it and I want to.
QuoteImagine if you were checking out a board than had mostly female members. And over on the sidebar was a mostly-naked, pretty provocative picture of Patrick Stewart or Nathan Fillion. Would you stick around?
Seriously? Sign me up ;) I'd be there on a daily basis.
I wrote this, before Sue's las post. I will try to smooth things over with her, but after the jokes that followed her exit I'm think I let her go.
I read the comment to Dave, my husband, to get his honest opinion. Finding the initial comment humorous, he chuckled...then he said "yeah that was sexist."
Chris, I did not say men could not want equality for women. We did a whole series on Anomaly about how women are treated in sci-fi and fantasy....and included the opinions of a variety of women. We were shocked when we got reamed afterward on a blog, written by two chicks who thought we include men too much on our show, they didnt like the inclusion of a male voice reading the definition of Anomaly at the start of our episodes, and apparently we talk too much about authors who just so happened to be male. They seemed to take great offense to men in general. We think that is sexist too. They said they felt the need to warn their liseners about that aspect of our Anomaly. I'm thinking, playing Josh Wedon's Equality Now speech on our show made their heads spin. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. I did not say men could not be for equality. I know that is far from the truth.
I don't like when I am told how to interpret something. I said I thought the comment was a bit sexist. It's an opinion. When i said you are not a woman, I meant you can't experience my feelings. it's not being over sensitive, Ktrek...it's being honest. I thought we could do that here in a respectful manner.
When I we were growing up, my dad called my brother "boy" in a very thick Texas drawl. I began to mimic my dad, accent and all, by calling my brother and kids his age "boy". It was all very innocent and light-hearted. One day, I was working at a pet store and a young kid came in with his father. Without thinking, I said "hey boy" and gave the child a high five. It just so happened that the kid was African American. His dad gave me an "eat worms and die" look. It was then I realized how "hey boy" sounded to him. It did not occur to me until then. I did not intend it the way he took it, but nevertheless he was offended and who was I to tell him he was misinterpreting the words? It wasn't about whether I was right or wrong or how minor the greeting was or wasn't. He took offense and I realized that there was a history that went along with the word that to me simlpy meant "male child" but to him meant something racist. I didn't think he was over-reacting. He didn't know me and he drew the wrong conclusion, but that didn't matter. I am the last person to make racial slurs, but I still felt bad about saying what I said. Does that make sense? I
I am not asking for an apology. I am not demanding draconian rules about how people talk on the forum. We are just telling you it sounded off to our feminine ears. However it was intended, it obviosly struck a cord. Is it a serious infraction worthy of a ban? Of course not. But Sue wanted to say, "hey that sounded wrong to my ears". I think that has been done here before and no one stomped off or was kicked off the board. We just learned from it and we are all still pals.
The character who sparked the conversation a was a mute bomb shell. She was incapable of speaking for most, if not all of the movie...but she looked hot. She wasn't quiet because she was reserved or shy. She couldn't form words and communicate. Thats what I know and that's what formed my opinion about the statement made. I wasn't offended either. I was just agreeing with Sue's observation.
I will repeat that Sue has said in several replies, and in bold text, She did not take personal offense until now. I am trying not to. :shocked
It's a biblical issue Joby. Amy was raised in the church and there is a passage where Jesus says that if we look at a women with lust in our heart then it is just as if we have committed adultery. So that is where we get the whole idea of not making it a habit of looking at others for the sole purpose of pleasure. :). I didn't always believe this way as I didn't know anything about the Bible growing up. So when we committed to each other we promised to do our best to honor each other by not lusting after others. Now, we aren't perfect, and we don't always succeed, but we do our best. Does that make sense? I don't expect everyone to believe that way.
I guess the "jokes" you're referring to are my posts, Jen? If I came across as insensitive to Sue and her feelings I surely didnt mean to. I would never mock someone's heartfelt post as you seem to think I did. I know I don't want to see ANYONE leave here with bad feelings for any reason, especially over something I might have said in a dumb attempt to lighten the mood with humor. I've already apologized once and I'll do it again right now, and even say to Sue please don't go. We can get through this with friendships intact. I really am very sorry if I hurt anyone or came across as mean spirited or insensitive.
It's okay, Joby. I know you've apologized several times... . Your a cool guy.
Quote from: moyer777 on December 02, 2011, 09:39:06 PM
It's a biblical issue Joby. Amy was raised in the church and there is a passage where Jesus says that if we look at a women with lust in our heart then it is just as if we have committed adultery. So that is where we get the whole idea of not making it a habit of looking at others for the sole purpose of pleasure. :). I didn't always believe this way as I didn't know anything about the Bible growing up. So when we committed to each other we promised to do our best to honor each other by not lusting after others. Now, we aren't perfect, and we don't always succeed, but we do our best. Does that make sense? I don't expect everyone to believe that way.
It does make sense, thanks. It would be a hard standard to live up to, for me. I think I'd really hate feeling like I betrayed my wife every time I looked at a pretty girl and had an impure thought.
WOW!! I didn't mean to cause such a stir. I in no way meant it to be bad. I even worded the "quiet" as I did instead of saying something much more derogatory. Women have as much worth as a man In this world, but when i watch a Sci Fi show, I do not mind Eye Candy. I have thought Linda Harrison was beautiful since the first time I saw POTA. More clothes wouldn't change my opinion!!!
So My sincere apologies for any offense I may have caused, it was not the intention.
Starbuck IS Awesome!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Jen on December 02, 2011, 09:28:46 PM
When I we were growing up, my dad called my brother "boy" in a very thick Texas drawl. I began to mimic my dad, accent and all, by calling my brother and kids his age "boy". It was all very innocent and light-hearted. One day, I was working at a pet store and a young kid came in with his father. Without thinking, I said "hey boy" and gave the child a high five. It just so happened that the kid was African American. His dad gave me an "eat worms and die" look. It was then I realized how "hey boy" sounded to him. It did not occur to me until then. I did not intend it the way he took it, but nevertheless he was offended and who was I to tell him he was misinterpreting the words? It wasn't about whether I was right or wrong or how minor the greeting was or wasn't. He took offense and I realized that there was a history that went along with the word that to me simlpy meant "male child" but to him meant something racist. I didn't think he was over-reacting. He didn't know me and he drew the wrong conclusion, but that didn't matter. I am the last person to make racial slurs, but I still felt bad about saying what I said. Does that make sense?
I totally understand where you are coming from and I've seen and experienced the same situations that you're talking about. I've just taken the other side when it's happened. I know far too many people that get upset over things like you described and I've actually put friends in their place for taking offense to something that isn't meant to be offending. I know everyone has their own levels of sensitivity to things, but I've long ago learned that it's not what people say, it's how they say it. This is just my personal view and I know that, but I'm kind of torn in this situation. I agree that we shouldn't discriminate or make anyone feel uncomfortable at any time, but at the same time, we can't be responsible for everyone's comfort levels and self edit things that might cause offense.
Asking to place the bar on what you might say around female family members doesn't create a universal standard because not every woman will find offense in something that another woman does. It's a very tricky road to navigate and I personally don't know how to navigate it other than how I usually do things. If something wasn't meant to be offensive, I try not to take offense.
I know many things were said about the Babes and hunk thing and I know that there are a lot of women upset about the whole women image given to us by the media. I respect and understand that, but like to take this moment to point out that men suffer the same bias from the male images in media. Most of us are not rocking 6 packs (other than the ones you buy) and those images are something that we have to compete against. Then again, I can be blase when it comes to things like the Babe and Hunk section. I never really follow it or pay attention to it so I've never found anything offending. From what I have noticed, these are pretty much standard images that are circulating in the media. I know that there are a lot of self-image issues going on in the country, but I'm really more focused on making sure that my girls have the tools and self-respect to where that doesn't become an issue for them.
I hope that what I posted wasn't taken to be offensive because that's not what I was trying to do. I know that this comes down to a respect issue, but how do we do that when we don't know what someone might find offensive until after it's posted? I just wish that it didn't explode like this because I don't think anyone here is trying to purposely offend anyone.
Hey Rick, thanks for explaining your position and I gotta tell you that I respect it. I kinda know where you're coming from about respecting the wishes of the wife. My wife doesn't really care about who I look at and I think that's part of the reason that I'm not ogling anyone. I can appreciate a good looking person ( I also appreciate smart people for their brains), but I'm only sexually attracted to my wife.
I can see where Sue and Jen are coming from - and I will take the reminder to heart - or 'Grok' it... We all have a good thing going here with this virtual community - and I sincerely hope no one will leave.
I think I've said my peace here enough and don't feel the need to either explain or defend anything further. People can make up their own minds about whether they want to remain friends and stay here or not. I frankly can't quite believe such a tiny matter has created such a stir (plus Rob has already apologized for his comment and said it wasn't intended to offend). I had thought we knew each other better and trusted each other a bit more too. Anyway, I'm tempted to close this thread down to avoid any more fuel being tossed on the fire. But for now it will remain open.
Good grief, go to bed and wake up to this crap storm.. How this has gotten to this point is dizzying. This really was very simple. LoneStar made a comment which although tongue in cheek and not meant to offend is a bit of a derogatory stereotype. We can all recognize how that can be interpreted as such. Sue took a bit of umbrage and felt comfortable voicing her feelings. I encouraged her that she should, thinking LoneStar would eventually see the thread and apologize. End of story. Instead we get pages of others trying to explain to Sue why she either shouldn't feel that way or is overreacting. God Lord. It doesn't matter as much what the intent of the comment was, what matters is how it was received. Telling Sue she shouldn't feel the way she does and arguing about it...well that would set me off big time and I wouldn't have been as kind as she was in her response. A shame and I hope she doesn't leave.
Quote from: Bryancd on December 03, 2011, 06:06:13 AM
Good grief, go to bed and wake up to this crap storm.. How this has gotten to this point is dizzying. This really was very simple. LoneStar made a comment which although tongue in cheek and not meant to offend is a bit of a derogatory stereotype. We can all recognize how that can be interpreted as such. Sue took a bit of umbrage and felt comfortable voicing her feelings. I encouraged her that she should, thinking LoneStar would eventually see the thread and apologize. End of story. Instead we get pages of others trying to explain to Sue why she either shouldn't feel that way or is overreacting. God Lord. It doesn't matter as much what the intent of the comment was, what matters is how it was received. Telling Sue she shouldn't feel the way she does and arguing about it...well that would set me off big time and I wouldn't have been as kind as she was in her response. A shame and I hope she doesn't leave.
I've been staying out of this conversation but have been chatting with Sue off boards. But I want to thank you Bryan for your comments.. it's very well said. And my thoughts exactly.
Quote from: Bryancd on December 03, 2011, 06:06:13 AM
Good grief, go to bed and wake up to this crap storm.. How this has gotten to this point is dizzying. This really was very simple. LoneStar made a comment which although tongue in cheek and not meant to offend is a bit of a derogatory stereotype. We can all recognize how that can be interpreted as such. Sue took a bit of umbrage and felt comfortable voicing her feelings. I encouraged her that she should, thinking LoneStar would eventually see the thread and apologize. End of story. Instead we get pages of others trying to explain to Sue why she either shouldn't feel that way or is overreacting. God Lord. It doesn't matter as much what the intent of the comment was, what matters is how it was received. Telling Sue she shouldn't feel the way she does and arguing about it...well that would set me off big time and I wouldn't have been as kind as she was in her response. A shame and I hope she doesn't leave.
It wasn't my intent to tell anyone how to feel. My point is that we don't know if someone will find an innocent comment offensive until after it's made and that there is really no way to self-censor that. Everyone should feel free to voice their concerns when it comes to something, but I think that that consideration should go both ways. When we make comments, people will well comment on them and create discussion. I didn't see it as someone coming down on high to chastise Sue for her comments, but a logical discourse on the issues that were brought up. Again, I can't speak for everyone, but my intent was not to offend anyone and I don't think that it was anyone else's goal to offend someone.
People are 100% entitled to feel how they feel about any given issue. We can't brain-jack people into seeing the world through our eyes. Even something of pure benign intent might offend someone at some point. We all don't have the same moral, political, religious, or social compasses.
This place is also a melting pot on ways to deal with issues. Some people get emotional. Some people get logical. Some get defensive. Some go on the offense. Some try to joke to defuse perceived tensions. We each have our ways of discussing things and sometimes the very way something is being discussed can lead to unexpected problems. I don't think that forum is a secret chapter for NO MA'AM nor do I think that it will become one.
At the end of the day, we need to remember that we can't know if someone is being offensive until after someone else finds a comment offensive. By that time the genie is out of the bottle and hard to put back in. We also have to remember that just as there are tons of people that will apologize for unintentional offense, there are also tons of people that won't apologize because they feel that they are not responsible for someone taking slight at what they thought was an innocent comment. The more diverse a group is, the more diverse they are at how to deal with issue of the community and the MANY problems that dealing with those issue can create.
I try to speak only for myself and remember that everyone here is an individual that can only speak for themselves. I try to respect the views and intent of others as much as I am capable of, but freely admit that I am flaws and prone to make the extremely rare mistake here and there. I also try to agree to disagree when a consensus can't be met.
That's a lot of words to say something pretty simple. Sue shouldn't get beat up for voicing her opinion and LoneSpar shouldn't get beat up over a innocently made comment. And I'm not saying that either were or were not beaten up, just that understanding should go both ways.
Well the lesson I take from this experience, is that no matter how right I may feel in a given position or discourse, it is not always necessary, every time, to express my opinion...especially when someone whose feelings I care about is hurt and feeling disrespected. I feel pretty certain that there are people in this community that may take issue with statements I make occasionally that go against something they believe deeply, and may tempted to react but hold their tongues for the sake of keeping the peace and not getting involved in a fruitless argument.
I've also reached out to Sue privately and hope she chooses to accept my apology.
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on December 03, 2011, 11:00:40 AM
I feel pretty certain that there are people in this community that may take issue with statements I make occasionally that go against something they believe deeply, and may tempted to react but hold their tongues for the sake of keeping the peace and not getting involved in a fruitless argument.
Only when you say something bad about Apple, then the gloves are off. :)
Quote from: Bryancd on December 03, 2011, 12:36:31 PM
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on December 03, 2011, 11:00:40 AM
I feel pretty certain that there are people in this community that may take issue with statements I make occasionally that go against something they believe deeply, and may tempted to react but hold their tongues for the sake of keeping the peace and not getting involved in a fruitless argument.
Only when you say something bad about Apple, then the gloves are off. :)
I'm here now, because someone said something about Apple?
;) jk
King
I felt a disturbance in the force.... did someone say something bad about Apple?
Marko