Bill HR passed to law (and other controversies it seems...)

[X]

If life is a right then medical services to grant a better life and a happier life is EXACTLY what the founders were speaking of.

I do not believe the governement thinks life is a "right". If they do then they are inconsistent in allowing any form of abortion coverage and protection. No they do not see life as a right.

Kevin

Kevin. The abortion debate using Roe v wade has never been about abortion. Roe v wade was about a woman's right to privacy and determining her own medical treatment. Because women are entitled to medical privacy they are entitled to choose what medical procedures that they want for their bodies. If they have a right to privacy, you can't look over their shoulders and tell them they can't have elective surgery.

I have my own personal views on abortion, but I am adult enough to mind my own business in things that don't concern me. I suggest that anyone who is curious about the subject to actually read the ruling.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0410_0113_ZS.html

[X]

In continuing the discussion, you brought up something interesting. Should we ban abortion and allow more uninsured children brought into a world where they can not be given proper medical care? If these people opting for an abortion didn't want a child, would they make good parents if forced to have the child or should they be shuffled into an already broken system where many children are not adopted and spend their entire childhood living in the system.

If some people don't want to pay for universal health care, who are they expecting to pay for an unwanted child that the mother is more than likely not going to keep? Should the fact that a woman can die from childbirth with even the best medical care weigh in that decision? Having a child is a risk on the life of any woman with or without insurance, so if a woman goes to term with a child that she doesn't want and they both die, should we feel okay with that?

Lastly, if we force a woman to go though was a pregnancy that she doesn't want, are we also supposed to force them to have the proper care, diet, and drug free life style? What if they don't care about the child and continue to booze or what have you, should we arrest them for getting pregnant and not wanting it then throw them into protective custody for the duration to keep the child safe?  Are we as a society going to pay her bills for the work she has to miss to have the child she doesn't want?

I hope that I am not the only person that has considered all of this. I, for my own personal beliefs, don't agree with abortion on some levels, but I detest the alternative.

[Bryancd]

Oh boy...here we go....

[Bromptonboy]

((Bromptonboy heads for cover..))   ;)

[X]

Oh boy...here we go....

Nah, we don't have to go anywhere with this. Something was brought up and I brought up a counter point to it. Someone once said to me that just because I don't agree with something doesn't make it wrong. I think that a man's opinion on abortion is kind of a moot point. It's not our bodies and we can't force someone to do what we want either way. Even if we could be the best fathers in the world we simply don't have the right to risk someone's life against their will to do it. Is it a balanced system? Not even close. As I said, I have my own opinions on it, but I'd be a fool to think it was balanced and fair to men. There are ways to make parts more balanced without trampling a woman's rights, but even that is controversial.

Some things can't be fair and balanced, but (and to shift back on topic) affordable (not free) health care is one of those things that we can be fair about.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

All I can think of was:  (From the Holy Grail)


RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY!  :P

King

[alanp]

I gave up a long time ago on trying to change people's minds on abortion.  Each side is way to cemented into their own personal beliefs.  And it really is a sensitive issue which life experiences play a major part on which side they come down on.  I try not to let myself get stirred up about it.

Not to get too political but don't see how this is getting paid for.  They borrowed the money for the war in Iraq and the bailouts, the budget comes up short every year, the national debt doubled between 2000-2008, etc.  Even without this bill, I don't see how ends would ever be expected to meet.  In the post revolutionary period they scrambled to pay down the war debts as to not burdon future generations; they felt to burdon their children and grandchildren would be immoral.  In order to get caught up, they would have to do to painful things: raise taxes and cut spending.  No one wants their taxes raised nor any cut that might effect them.  Sorry if that was too political, I know my opinionated typing tends to rub people the wrong way.  I'll get off my soapbox now.

[Bryancd]

Well, like I mentioned, they will have no choice but to raise taxes on Medicare, which they have already said is a done deal. So if you make $200K individually of $250K Joint, your taxes are going up. That was my point about US small business which accounts for the majority of hiring in this country. This tax will hit them square in the face. Add to that an inevitable increase in long term capital gains and dividend/interest income will hurt investment portfolios for all Americans. We have issues so much debt over the past decade, this expense will increase that, putting our AAA credit rating at risk. They are risking more than most people realize and at the wrong time just to pass a bad piece of legislation. I have VERY serious concerns as to what this country will look like in another 10-15 years....

I wish we could achieve some form of universal health care through full employment, employer sponsored health benefits, tax break incentives to facilitate that. Instead, we get the Federal Government who I think are border line incompetent. I had no idea how uniformwed our elected officials have become until I watched the Senate Banking Committee questioning Financial Services CEO's. It's alarming, horrifying, depressing, how little they now about economics. It's staggering.  :ohwell

[X]

Well, like I mentioned, they will have no choice but to raise taxes on Medicare, which they have already said is a done deal. So if you make $200K individually of $250K Joint, your taxes are going up. That was my point about US small business which accounts for the majority of hiring in this country. This tax will hit them square in the face. Add to that an inevitable increase in long term capital gains and dividend/interest income will hurt investment portfolios for all Americans. We have issues so much debt over the past decade, this expense will increase that, putting our AAA credit rating at risk. They are risking more than most people realize and at the wrong time just to pass a bad piece of legislation. I have VERY serious concerns as to what this country will look like in another 10-15 years....

I wish we could achieve some form of universal health care through full employment, employer sponsored health benefits, tax break incentives to facilitate that. Instead, we get the Federal Government who I think are border line incompetent. I had no idea how uniformwed our elected officials have become until I watched the Senate Banking Committee questioning Financial Services CEO's. It's alarming, horrifying, depressing, how little they now about economics. It's staggering.  :ohwell

I can agree with you that there are some uninformed people in the government, but I think the same could be said for many companies. Granted the wasteful military spending didn't help us, but the creative book keeping and shady lending practices of several major companies are in part to blame for the current state of affairs.

I think that there could have been a much better bill, but I'm not unhappy with what we did get. There are provisions to get more nurses trained and help them with school. We've had a critical nursing shortage for years now.

I do think that we can be better and that it's sad to know that our children's generation are projected to have a shorter lifespan than ours because of the way we have been abusing food and diets. This in part has to do with the worst food being the cheapest and Americans as a whole not understanding what a proper portion is. Hopefully the provision in this law to educate people on food and other preventative measures included in the law will teach people the tool they need to prevent many of the illnesses that can be prevented.

[JoSpiv]

What bothers me the most is all the hate that is out there.  Members of Congress are getting death threats, and now are being given protection.  The idea that this new law some how takes rights away from people is crazy.  And the claims that it wasn't done through the normal process seen for every other law is simply a lie.  It wasn't rushed through, nor were the Republicans left out.  This was a process that took 14 months officially, and large portions of this law are Republican ideas.  The Democrats didn't get what they wanted either, there is no Public Option.

The lies and hate speak that are now coming out of some people in the government are from private citizens is pretty horrible, and I think it will hurt the Republican Party for years to come if it continues.  

[alanp]

Well I was about to comment that, yes republicans have been acting childish and have been completely unimpressive this time around; but in 2004 the democrats got pretty rough as well.

I just flipped by the news to a story that a republican congressman's campaign office attacked.  Someone shot a bullet through House Minority Whip Eric Cantor's office window.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20001168-503544.html

[Bryancd]

Here is the report from the committee:

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/106xx/doc10688/hr3962Rangel.pdf

Well, the CBO also said Social Security will be paying out more than it's taking in by 2016. Turns out that will happen next year. Good job!  :ohwell

[alanp]

Well, the CBO also said Social Security will be paying out more than it's taking in by 2016. Turns out that will happen next year. Good job!  :ohwell

Speaking of Social Security, did you know members of the clergy can opt out of the program as a conscious objector by filling out IRS Form 4361?

What's odd to me is, why just the preacher and not the congregation?  If I and my pastor share the same beliefs, why should I not be allowed to opt out as he does?  If given the choice I personally would like the option to put that money in a retirement account of my choosing rather than letting the government manage that money for me.  And I would be one less person the government would have to worry about paying social security out to.

[Bryancd]

If given the choice I personally would like the option to put that money in a retirement account of my choosing rather than letting the government manage that money for me.  

But why?! They do such a good job!  :roflmao

[alanp]

But why?! They do such a good job!  :roflmao

Yeah, chimps could do better.