Expelled

[X]

Has anyone heard anything about this movie. I haven't seen it yet, but I hear that it's kind of bad in how they paint science and martyr intelligent design. I also hear that they back handedly attack Darwin and make him the driving idea behind the holocaust. I know we have both science and religious types on the board and I just want to know where people stand on evolution.

I think it happens. My friend disagress and asked me if I'm willing to bet my soul on my belief in evolution.

Anyway, this movie was supposed to address the different sides of the evolution / ID debate, but the movie produces say that half way into making the movie called crossroads, they found that scientist where trying to suppress ID and then changed the move to Expelled to address this injustice.


Only they had already registered the Expelled The Movie website several months before they even started to do the research.

Anywhoo here are the sites. There are also at least two podcast by SciAm that talk about  the movie.

www.expelledthemovie.com  .... for one side
www.expelledexposed.com ... for the refuting of the movie and its statements of "fact".

[moyer777]

Well, talk about a hot topic.  This is one where people really get all bent out of shape about stuff.

Being a Christian, I don't think you have to cash your "brains" in at the door.  I think there is a lot we don't know, and both sides state things that are supposed "facts"  Both sides of the issue have a certain amount of "faith" that is exercised and steps to get where they go.

For me there is still a lot of unkown in this whole debate. I see both sides, but it doesn't really shake my belief in God.   I'm just better off now than I was before, and I owe much of that to God and people of faith in my life. 

I will watch the movie, and after that give you my honest opinion.  I look forward to your opinion as well.

:orc

[X]

Well, talk about a hot topic.  This is one where people really get all bent out of shape about stuff.

Being a Christian, I don't think you have to cash your "brains" in at the door.  I think there is a lot we don't know, and both sides state things that are supposed "facts"  Both sides of the issue have a certain amount of "faith" that is exercised and steps to get where they go.

For me there is still a lot of unkown in this whole debate. I see both sides, but it doesn't really shake my belief in God.   I'm just better off now than I was before, and I owe much of that to God and people of faith in my life. 

I will watch the movie, and after that give you my honest opinion.  I look forward to your opinion as well.

Thanks for chiming in Rick, your opinion was one that I was really looking for. I agree that there are two sides to this and it is polarizing.

I know that many people of faith don't check their brains at the door, but unfortunately one of my long time friends and recently born again evangelical seems to do just that. He believes that to question the bible or attempt extrapolate things from in is a one way ticket down.

While I don't have a set religion, I have done my best to learn as much as I can about as many religions as I can to get a better understanding of my personal faith. I also think of my self as one who heavily respect science and the quest for knowledge.

That being said, I don't see how this has even become a true debate. To me ID isn't a science because it doesn't fall into the definition of what science is. It seems more like school of thought.

Here is what my own limited understanding of religion and science have made as my belief system.

Evolution vs Seven Days: By science, a day is more or less defined as when a heavenly body makes a 360 rotation to it's primary source of light. Earth has them every 24 hours, but some bodies take hundreds of years to complete their 360. To that end, we really don't know what a "day" is to god and if you clock a day in billions or millions of earth years, the Six day genesis thing works for me.

Adam made from clay and god breaths life into him. This works for me too because I think evolution exists and if there was a primordial soup, it wouldn't look like clear water and maybe even have some suspended earth in the mix, which would qualify as mud to me. Some theories suggest that it was lightning that provided the final part to create the spark of life. Lighting, in my opinion would be a nice example of God's breath. Even insurance companies call it an act of god.

I can resolve the existence of a creator and the body of science in my paradigm without being at odd with myself, so I find it hard to understand the core of this issue.

To me, evolution doesn't take anything from God the creator, but it does give him/her the foresight to have created life to adapt to the changing universe that he/she created. I don't know the mind of my God, but I would assume that if the universe is a dynamic and changing place, the creations of said deity would never be static and unchanging.

I hope I expressed that without offending anyone's faith.

[moyer777]

To date I haven't heard anyone articulate the issue the way you have.  Thank you.

[X]

To date I haven't heard anyone articulate the issue the way you have.  Thank you.

Is that a good thing or bad thing? I've been known to have out there views.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I'm staying out of this.

King

[moyer777]

I guess I should have said it more clearly. :)  I appreciate your level tone and non threatning discourse.  I may not agree with you on everything, but you are very civil in your discussion, something that doesn't often happen on these types of subjects on either side of things. 

I have to digest what you said in order to give you an intelligent response.  :)  Give me a few days to think about what you said.  Oh, and I want to watch the movie too.

[moyer777]

I'm staying out of this.

King

:)

[Rico]

I will trust all here to keep this thread running smoothly.  Like the election/politics thread, this is a discussion I will stay out of.

[sheldor]

I'm seeing the movie today.  I know/have heard both the good, bad and ugly :)  Just about all the reviews have been bad - which I expected.  Remember Last Temptation of Christ ?   It received high marks but the movie - never mind the subject matter - was pretty bad.

For me, evolution, creation and most recently - global warming should not have a place in the public school system.  I've read stories of teachers using the classroom as a soapbox - on both sides of the argument - which I cannot support.  If the class is called English 101, that's what should be taught.   For schools like ORU, teaching creation would be expected.  It was a much simpler time when I was in high school.  Math/science, english, social studies, gym and music.  Its so different today - high schools/colleges have become a battleground in addition to learning institutions

This movie seems to concentrate on the chastisement/loss of tenure for those teaching in the public universities who believe in creation (personally, I don't like the term ID).

I only hope there are no demonstators at the theatre - for either side.  I'm all for right to petition but don't shove it in my face.

If any of you are interested, the forums on carm.org have a few topics on the movie but be warned.  Personal insults are common and childish.

I may be the hybrid of the group.  I have a strong math/science background but yet I have a strong faith also.  Go figure.

[X]

I still don't get the need to insult in a healthy debate. This comes from both sides, but at the core it defeats the ability to have an open dialog.

I thrive on a spirited debate. I think the world is a better place because of the passionate exchange of both fact and ideas. I'm not sure that any can change my position when I decide something, but I have been known to use newly provided information to adjust my personal views.

I also don't think that the world isn't filled with godless scientists or witless people of faith. Sure you can turn over a rock and some of each type will stumble out, but they are not the norm.

When I was in public school as a child, elementary to be exact, we were still in the place where we prayed in school, said the pledge, and the teacher had a paddle. The world has changed a lot since then, but I've noticed one really interesting thing.

You can't force someone to a specific religion and you can't explain science to someone that doesn't want to listen.

I actually spoke with my father on this subject last night and he was happy to give me his perspective. The funny part of this conversation is that we have NEVER discussed our religious beliefs with each other. I assumed that he was a dyed in the wool Catholic and he thought I was pretty much godless.

As we talked, he told me that he went to Catholic school as a child and he had questions and when he asked those question, people looked at him as if he was asking how to best worship the devil.

Our conversation continued and we found that our views were more alike than different and even those differences weren't to different.

I won't get into the core details, but I found a way to reconcile many of my questions with both science and faith and on his own, he found a similar path.

We both agreed that accepting science does not mean you have to weaken your faith or check it at the door. Healthy debate without finger pointing or name calling makes the world go round.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

For me, evolution, creation and most recently - global warming should not have a place in the public school system.  I've read stories of teachers using the classroom as a soapbox - on both sides of the argument - which I cannot support.  If the class is called English 101, that's what should be taught.   For schools like ORU, teaching creation would be expected.  It was a much simpler time when I was in high school.  Math/science, english, social studies, gym and music.  Its so different today - high schools/colleges have become a battleground in addition to learning institutions

Now I have to get involved.  The reason teachers do "preach" is the following:

A: They are a lousy teacher and don't know what to teach.
B: They have political opinions and try to spread that to their students. 
C: No one has stopped them yet.

I disliked several High School teachers for the sole reason they tried to teach about Democratic things (no offense to anyone here.)  They would go on for hours about how Bush screwed up the country and how we are nothing more than an oil company ruled anarchy..or something like that. 

Evolution of course, was another main topic of the science teachers.  As I believe in the Creation theory, I have a closed mind to Evolution.  (Far too many holes in the entire theory make it unbelievable).  Yet teachers would use their soap box in many class lectures and I found it distasteful.  No, I'm not saying that because they were spouting off about Liberal ideas or Evolution that I hated them, but its the fact that they used their standing as a teacher to talk about things that were NOT part of the course. 

Example: A math teacher would spend nearly 15-20 minutes each day talking about the Middle East, Bush's new screwup, or w/e.  We only had 41 minute classes. 

Would I have the same problem if he was talking about Republican things?  Yes, this is MATH not POLITICS.  I actually dropped the class 1/2 way through the year and never took math again till College.  A move that may not have been intelligent. 

Ok, that...is the short version of hours long worth of ranting about HS teachers.  Trust me, you don't want it.

King

[Jen]

I agree with Rick. As a Christian I haven't stopped believing in God because someone explains how he actually went about creating the universe. I enjoy learning about things like this... though I don't always agree with everything they push forward, most of it sounds plausible.

I've watched news interviews with regards to this movie, and it seems that the topic is actually about those professors and scientists who question evolution and what happens to them afterwards... not 'why creationism is better'. These scientists are shunned by academia and the science community. Personally, I think this mind set is a detriment to education and boarders on censorship.

I studied archaeology  in college and I would have minored in it if the major I was going for allowed for a minor (while I was in college, at Texas state schools Art Majors couldn't have minors)... Archaeologists pick at each other and tear each others theories apart when they don't agree or when another's theories conflict with their own...even when there hypothesis is unproven and the new theory makes more sense and has data to back it up. It can be vicious and they turn on each other in much the same way the evolutionist and creationists have. Maybe some in the scientific community are just egotistical.  ???

[Meds]

Good, intelligent communications guys. Makes good reading.

[sheldor]

I agree with Rick. As a Christian I haven't stopped believing in God because someone explains how he actually went about creating the universe. I enjoy learning about things like this... though I don't always agree with everything they push forward, most of it sounds plausible.

I've watched news interviews with regards to this movie, and it seems that the topic is actually about those professors and scientists who question evolution and what happens to them afterwards... not 'why creationism is better'. These scientists are shunned by academia and the science community. Personally, I think this mind set is a detriment to education and boarders on censorship.

I studied archaeology  in college and I would have minored in it if the major I was going for allowed for a minor (while I was in college, at Texas state schools Art Majors couldn't have minors)... Archaeologists pick at each other and tear each others theories apart when they don't agree or when another's theories conflict with their own...even when there hypothesis is unproven and the new theory makes more sense and has data to back it up. It can be vicious and they turn on each other in much the same way the evolutionist and creationists have. Maybe some in the scientific community are just egotistical.  ???

Jen, you should see the movie. Its not nearly as bad as some movie "critics" have said.  In fact, I think the reason they gave it such poor marks is because - like the scientists in the movie - they may be blacklisted for even mentioning creation.

Ok, word of warning.  Ben Stein is not the most captivating narrators but they interspersed the interviews with some cool footage from WW2 - some of which I have never seen.

It's not a blockbuster and I doubt it will be around even a month.  There were only 2 other people in the theatre with me.

Some things I didn't expect - evolutionists calling those who adhere to the creation story as idiots.  That only goes to lose my respect for someone.  Most of these guys are phD's and here they are resorting to name-calling like they were still in puberty.   Rather childish.

I liked it - I'm sure I'll get the DVD when it comes out in June 2008 :)