TREKS IN SCI-FI FORUM

Crew Lounge => Conversations => Topic started by: Rico on January 24, 2011, 02:02:28 PM

Title: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: Rico on January 24, 2011, 02:02:28 PM
At the link below is a great article on 3D based off a letter Walter Murch wrote to Roger Ebert about the way 3D 'tries' to work - and fails.  Murch, for those that don't know the name is a very well respected film editor and sound designer.  I don't expect this to really change anyone's mind, but it may give some more to think about on this subject.  I don't want to copy and paste the article since it contains images illustrating his points.  But I encourage everyone to spend a few minutes and really read what Murch has to say on the subject.

P.S.  Thanks to Meds for letting me know about this article. 

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/01/post_4.html (http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/01/post_4.html)
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: Feathers on January 24, 2011, 02:27:47 PM
Interesting but logical. It also goes some way to helping me understand why 3D doesn't work for me.
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: turtlesrock on February 26, 2011, 04:25:44 PM
3D sometimes works for me. in avatar, i must admit that it was amazing!

though in other movies like chicken little it doesn't work.
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on February 26, 2011, 04:31:34 PM
There are medical/scientific studies finding that 3D may actually harm your children's eyes.  It had something to do with their eyes focusing and how 3D requires different focusing and blah blah.  Eeek.  Whether that is true or not the mere implication is not good.

King
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: turtlesrock on February 26, 2011, 04:38:25 PM
Quote from: Kingisaaclinksr on February 26, 2011, 04:31:34 PM
There are medical/scientific studies finding that 3D may actually harm your children's eyes.  It had something to do with their eyes focusing and how 3D requires different focusing and blah blah.  Eeek.  Whether that is true or not the mere implication is not good.

King

i'm starting to rethink seeing movies in 3D now
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on February 26, 2011, 04:54:14 PM
Quote from: turtlesrock on February 26, 2011, 04:38:25 PM
Quote from: Kingisaaclinksr on February 26, 2011, 04:31:34 PM
There are medical/scientific studies finding that 3D may actually harm your children's eyes.  It had something to do with their eyes focusing and how 3D requires different focusing and blah blah.  Eeek.  Whether that is true or not the mere implication is not good.

King

i'm starting to rethink seeing movies in 3D now

well, as long as your in your teens+ you should be fine.  And I think the researchers may have also meant that if you watch it constantly.  (Which I should have put in the above post).  Its like anything else in life, in moderation your fine, but take too much and your body reacts to it.  In whatever way that might be.

King
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: Geekyfanboy on February 26, 2011, 05:13:40 PM
Quote from: Kingisaaclinksr on February 26, 2011, 04:54:14 PM
Quote from: turtlesrock on February 26, 2011, 04:38:25 PM
Quote from: Kingisaaclinksr on February 26, 2011, 04:31:34 PM
There are medical/scientific studies finding that 3D may actually harm your children's eyes.  It had something to do with their eyes focusing and how 3D requires different focusing and blah blah.  Eeek.  Whether that is true or not the mere implication is not good.

King

i'm starting to rethink seeing movies in 3D now

well, as long as your in your teens+ you should be fine.  And I think the researchers may have also meant that if you watch it constantly.  (Which I should have put in the above post).  Its like anything else in life, in moderation your fine, but take too much and your body reacts to it.  In whatever way that might be.

King

Could you link to this article please.
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: Bryancd on February 26, 2011, 06:28:53 PM
My parents once told me if I were to do something fun too much I would go blind. So far, that hasn't panned out...;)
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: turtlesrock on February 26, 2011, 07:22:14 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on February 26, 2011, 06:28:53 PM
My parents once told me if I were to do something fun too much I would go blind. So far, that hasn't panned out...;)

yea so far :)
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: Dangelus on February 26, 2011, 07:28:18 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on February 26, 2011, 06:28:53 PM
My parents once told me if I were to do something fun too much I would go blind. So far, that hasn't panned out...;)

Sorry, would you mind using a larger font? I'm struggling to.... ;)
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: X on February 26, 2011, 07:49:31 PM
Quote from: Kingisaaclinksr on February 26, 2011, 04:31:34 PM
There are medical/scientific studies finding that 3D may actually harm your children's eyes.  It had something to do with their eyes focusing and how 3D requires different focusing and blah blah.  Eeek.  Whether that is true or not the mere implication is not good.

King
I highly doubt this. In fact, I don't believe it at all. Eyes are adaptive and so is the brain. If you teach it new tricks early, it can adapt and use them better than doing it later.

Also, the technology behind the 3D, at it's core is over 100 years old. Hell, we as children were exposed to the concepts with the might viewmaster. If something was wrong with the tech, they would have discovered it decades ago and not made it into a children's toy.
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on February 26, 2011, 08:17:34 PM
http://www.themedguru.com/20110103/newsfeature/nintendos-3d-gaming-can-harm-kids-eyesight-86143222.html (http://www.themedguru.com/20110103/newsfeature/nintendos-3d-gaming-can-harm-kids-eyesight-86143222.html)
Nintendo warns about harming 6 year olds with its 3DS.  

http://www.beijingtoday.com.cn/health/scientists-say-movies-hurt-eyes (http://www.beijingtoday.com.cn/health/scientists-say-movies-hurt-eyes)
About movies, also talks about headaches.  

I can't find the specific article I saw a month ago, but these come close.  

I should have also stated I don't necessarily believe the "research" behind this.  (Merely saying its remotely, if unlikely, possible) Its fairly inconclusive and as you X pointed out, our eyes are adaptive.  If kids were being harmed by this tech, we would have had at least one generation now with damaged eyesight.  Heck, I've seen two now and I walked out just fine, no headaches at all.  

If anything, lasers are probably more damaging than 3D is "likely" to be.  

King
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: X on February 26, 2011, 08:33:36 PM
The first links talk about headaches in people prone to having headaches or eye problems. Regardless of that, I find the source dubious at best and there is no scientific study behind the opinion of the writer that is obviously not a scientist.

I think you'll find more articles on CFLs causing more headaches than 3D.

I think that people also want to find problems where they are none for the most part. The whole vaccine thing comes to mind with that and despite the truth coming out on the subject, the damage has already been done.

But I do agree with you about the "research"
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on February 26, 2011, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: X on February 26, 2011, 08:33:36 PM
The first links talk about headaches in people prone to having headaches or eye problems. Regardless of that, I find the source dubious at best and there is no scientific study behind the opinion of the writer that is obviously not a scientist.

I think you'll find more articles on CFLs causing more headaches than 3D.

I think that people also want to find problems where they are none for the most part. The whole vaccine thing comes to mind with that and despite the truth coming out on the subject, the damage has already been done.

But I do agree with you about the "research"

Heh, your dang right on the "finding-problems-where-there-are-none".  Video games are heavily afflicted by this current issue.  The articles I could link that make me shake my head at the mainstream media are getting longer by the day (on this "issue")...

King
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: Rico on February 27, 2011, 05:25:13 AM
I think everyone needs to keep in mind that not everyone responds the same way to 3-D.  Some people perceive it fine with their eyes - others have a lot of trouble.  Some people get allergies - others don't.  Still, the same bottom line is there for me - I don't need 3-D to make a movie better.  Just give me a good movie to watch.
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: WillEagle on February 27, 2011, 06:28:28 AM
I don't need the 3-D either just do the IMAX big screens for most movies. I don't think Eat, Pray, Love would have needed to be in IMAX. Just your action, sci-fi type movies.  
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: turtlesrock on February 27, 2011, 02:03:47 PM
Quote from: WillEagle on February 27, 2011, 06:28:28 AM
I don't need the 3-D either just do the IMAX big screens for most movies. I don't think Eat, Pray, Love would have needed to be in IMAX. Just your action, sci-fi type movies.  

that does make sense. also those documentaries in science museums about space. it would be like really being on the enterprise!

speaking of which, has anyone been thinking about holodecks while reading these posts? they're like 3D movies (well i guess they could be called 4D, given you can interact with objects in them)
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: X on February 27, 2011, 03:41:57 PM
Quote from: turtlesrock on February 27, 2011, 02:03:47 PM
Quote from: WillEagle on February 27, 2011, 06:28:28 AM
I don't need the 3-D either just do the IMAX big screens for most movies. I don't think Eat, Pray, Love would have needed to be in IMAX. Just your action, sci-fi type movies.  

that does make sense. also those documentaries in science museums about space. it would be like really being on the enterprise!

speaking of which, has anyone been thinking about holodecks while reading these posts? they're like 3D movies (well i guess they could be called 4D, given you can interact with objects in them)
Nope, you'd still call it 3D, just a more advanced version. 4D would indicate manipulation of spacetime. 3D that are projections of actual events that are happening either forwards or backwards in time.

Although, some theaters in Korea are marketing some 3D films as 4D because they include vibration, wind, and rain physical effects. when it rains in the movie you get rained on.


'Avatar' goes 4D in Korea
Korean firm adds dimension to 3D movies
By HAN SUNHEE
SEOUL -- If the 3D "Avatar" is not enough, how about 4D?
The 4D screening uses more than 30 effects during the 3D film's 162 minute run, including moving seats, smells of explosives, sprinkling water, laser lights and wind. Despite the much higher $15.80 ticket price (an average ticket costs $6.90), screenings are regularly sold out.

"We (started to) prepared the 'Avatar' 4D ride last summer," says Tom Oh, prexy of 20th Century Fox Korea.

But 4D isn't new to Koreans. The nation's leading multiplex chain, CJ-CGV, began 4D shows last year in one 88-seat theater, with"Journey to the Center of the Earth."

But with the success of "Avatar," CJ-CGV opened three more "4D plexes."

Ten films have been shown with 4D effects designed by CJ-CGV's 4D programmer over the last year.

"There is no 4D theater like ours around the world. CGV's 4D plex is the first in the world that fully offers five-sense experiences with a movie title," says Kim Daehee, publicity manager of CJ-CGV.

Exhib has more 4D titles on tap, including the upcoming "Percy Jackson & the Olympians: The Lightning Thief."

Hoping to cash in, animation and VFX shingle Wonderworld Studio has announced that it has launched a unit specializing in the 4D experience. A Korea-U.S. joint venture with the L.A.-based Animation Picture Co., company plans to complete 10 4D ride films this year.
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: Bryancd on February 27, 2011, 04:18:36 PM
Quote from: Rico on February 27, 2011, 05:25:13 AM
  Just give me a good movie to watch.

I still am a bit confused as to what you mean by this, beyond the patently obvious that a movie should at least be a fun experience. Yes, a movie should be "good" in some respect, but that will vary by viewer. What movie has been released in 3D that was ONLY about being in 3D? Certainly that movie "Piranha 3D" was a schlock film using 3D as a goofy gimmick, but beyond AVATAR, most of the rest of the commercial film releases were up converted to 3D, so we would have had the same good, bad, ugly, 3D or not. So I am unclear how 3D is altering what kind of movies are made or their quality. It just seems a lot of movies are being changed into 3D for those that want to see it that way.
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: X on February 27, 2011, 04:29:01 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on February 27, 2011, 04:18:36 PM
Quote from: Rico on February 27, 2011, 05:25:13 AM
  Just give me a good movie to watch.

I still am a bit confused as to what you mean by this, beyond the patently obvious that a movie should at least be a fun experience. Yes, a movie should be "good" in some respect, but that will vary by viewer. What movie has been released in 3D that was ONLY about being in 3D? Certainly that movie "Piranha 3D" was a schlock film using 3D as a goofy gimmick, but beyond AVATAR, most of the rest of the commercial film releases were up converted to 3D, so we would have had the same good, bad, ugly, 3D or not. So I am unclear how 3D is altering what kind of movies are made or their quality. It just seems a lot of movies are being changed into 3D for those that want to see it that way.
That's a good point Bryan. 3D isn't changing the films other than giving people that want 3D a chance to see it. I don't think Quality has been affected by this choice at all. I also don't think it will ever come to a choice between a good movie or good 3D. I don't see a director tossing the script budget out for 3D conversion any more than they currently do in films that are more about the effects than the story.
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on February 27, 2011, 05:14:49 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on February 27, 2011, 04:18:36 PM
Quote from: Rico on February 27, 2011, 05:25:13 AM
 Just give me a good movie to watch.

I still am a bit confused as to what you mean by this, beyond the patently obvious that a movie should at least be a fun experience. Yes, a movie should be "good" in some respect, but that will vary by viewer. What movie has been released in 3D that was ONLY about being in 3D? Certainly that movie "Piranha 3D" was a schlock film using 3D as a goofy gimmick, but beyond AVATAR, most of the rest of the commercial film releases were up converted to 3D, so we would have had the same good, bad, ugly, 3D or not. So I am unclear how 3D is altering what kind of movies are made or their quality. It just seems a lot of movies are being changed into 3D for those that want to see it that way.

Its that the studios are trumping up 3D and trying to make the movie seem good that way.  I think that is what Rico is getting at.

King
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: Bryancd on February 27, 2011, 05:22:34 PM
Quote from: Kingisaaclinksr on February 27, 2011, 05:14:49 PM
Its that the studios are trumping up 3D and trying to make the movie seem good that way.
King

No, they are advertising and marketing a film that can also be seen in 3D, there's a difference. I don't think that's what Rico means at all, that's simply what you think.
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on February 27, 2011, 07:06:01 PM
Quote from: Bryancd on February 27, 2011, 05:22:34 PM
Quote from: Kingisaaclinksr on February 27, 2011, 05:14:49 PM
Its that the studios are trumping up 3D and trying to make the movie seem good that way.
King

No, they are advertising and marketing a film that can also be seen in 3D, there's a difference. I don't think that's what Rico means at all, that's simply what you think.

Well....well, that's all that matters is what I think Bryan!!  ;)

I did say THINK anyway.  I can't read minds :P.

King
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: Bryancd on February 27, 2011, 07:20:17 PM
 :boxing
:lol2

Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: davekill on February 27, 2011, 07:35:50 PM
So what indicates a good movie then?
If not just fantastic CG visuals or the reemergence of the 3D craze or even something like "Feel-a-Rama" as featured in the 1974 comedy The Kentucky Fried Movie - then what?

I know what doesn't make a good movie.
Corporate committees with accountants that expect maximum return on their investment due to universal appeal.

The afore mentioned Kentucky Fried Movie was made on a shoe string budget had no universal appeal, but like many other pop culture movies of it's time helped to define a generation.
I'd call that a good movie.
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: Rico on February 27, 2011, 07:48:00 PM
Not sure why you guys are confused as to what a good movie is?  Don't you know what movies you like??  And don't like???  I really don't know why this same old discussion seems to go on and on?  For me (and just me, although others may feel this way), a good movie first is about the story they tell.  Not, the effects, not the look, and certainly not 3D.  If I find the story absorbing, the characters intriguing, then I will enjoy the movie.  Again, I don't need this 3D gimmick (and it is a gimmick) to make me like the movie - if anything it will detract from it for me.  Go to most of the big movie websites and look up the last year's worth of 3D films and see what the majority of people thought of the 3D gimmick.  This isn't just me saying this, not by a long shot.  And with that, again I've said all I need to say. 
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: X on February 27, 2011, 09:26:30 PM
Quote from: Rico on February 27, 2011, 07:48:00 PM
Not sure why you guys are confused as to what a good movie is?  Don't you know what movies you like??  And don't like???  I really don't know why this same old discussion seems to go on and on?  For me (and just me, although others may feel this way), a good movie first is about the story they tell.  Not, the effects, not the look, and certainly not 3D.  If I find the story absorbing, the characters intriguing, then I will enjoy the movie.  Again, I don't need this 3D gimmick (and it is a gimmick) to make me like the movie - if anything it will detract from it for me.  Go to most of the big movie websites and look up the last year's worth of 3D films and see what the majority of people thought of the 3D gimmick.  This isn't just me saying this, not by a long shot.  And with that, again I've said all I need to say. 
Considering your criteria, color, sound, motion, and any effects would also classify as a gimmick. None of those are needed to tell a good story. Appreciated, but not needed if the story is there.
Title: Re: "Why 3D doesn't work and never will."
Post by: WillEagle on February 28, 2011, 03:53:51 PM
I would agree that 3D is a gimmick. I have only seen one movie in 3D and thought it was a waste of my money. I'll be honest though and say that the movie itself wasnt that great so I probably would have felt the same way if I paid regular price. But I would have had more money for popcorn. OK at the theater I probably wouldn't have had more money for popcorn.
X, I don't think I would classify color, sound & motion as gimmicks. Maybe to a slight degree special effects. But, hey, to each their own.