Great video... it's all about the right question to ask.
When Did You Choose to Be Straight? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJtjqLUHYoY#)
That was great! Of course it's a preference, although from a genetic/evolution stand point we are likely predisposed to be heterosexual, some people aren't wired that way and being homosexual is just as natural to them. I know gay men and women call heterosexuals "breeders" and it's a bit of a put down, but that's fair enough. :)
Interesting video, illustrating something so simple that should really be accepted as a given in today's world. I wonder though why the whole question of choice vs. hardwired genetic predisposition towards homosexuality really matters? What would change if everyone all at once suddenly understood that homosexuality is not a choice?
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on October 18, 2010, 06:55:38 AM
Interesting video, illustrating something so simple that should really be accepted as a given in today's world. I wonder though why the whole question of choice vs. hardwired genetic predisposition towards homosexuality really matters? What would change if everyone all at once suddenly understood that homosexuality is not a choice?
That's a good question. It seems like some want to treat homosexuality as a disease that needs to be treated, an aberration which somehow can be corrected. And again, simply consider the reciprocal. As a heterosexual, could you be "conditioned" to be homosexual? Like anything in our lives, our sense of aesthetic, beauty, what we are attracted to, varies. Once you get over the whole reproduction argument, which is a bit of a canard in my opinion, that's what it comes down to.
This whole debate is one with which many, many hard feelings and terrible actions have been attached. I've known gay men who were married, then just couldn't fight who they were any longer and came out. So much is made out of this debate, and while I can understand the frustration my ultimate view is...so what? You're gay? So what? You're straight? So what? How the HELL does your sexual orientation change WHO you are? Really? Was Rock Hudson any less a "mans-man" or any less the action star he wound up to be? NO! Even though straight people may not understand an attraction to someone from the same sex, that surely doesn't mean it has any less validity. I mean, I don't understand the Jonas Brothers, but that doesn't mean they're not good musicians! My point is simple (like me), doesn't matter if you are a "Christian" or not, if you don't agree with someone, fine but don't subject them brutality. And I would expect that if you ARE a Christian, you shouldn't be subjecting ANYONE to ANYTHING but love!
I for one don't really care who you love - same sex or opposite sex. I choose my friends based on WHO they are and how they treat me. Period. Now get on with your lives...in fact, go listen to Tales From The Mouse House!! :)
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on October 18, 2010, 06:55:38 AM
What would change if everyone all at once suddenly understood that homosexuality is not a choice?
Well for one thing everyone would know that we did not choose this lifestyle that it was chosen for us. May not seem like a big deal to you but believe me it's a big deal to gay people. Second thing for those who do believe in God it would mean that "he" made us this way.
When I was pastoring full time at a church I would often get force fed how evil gay people were and how their agenda would destroy our families and Country. But the truth is that none of us really even knew people who were gay, and if we did we were out to "Convert" them to our way of thinking. Our picket signs only stirred up hatred and our leaders saying how immoral it was to be gay were being caught in affairs or in homesexual relationships themselves. I looked around and no one who came to the church was gay- or at least confessed that they were. And why would they? We weren't even attempting to understand. Because of the way we looked at the Bible we read that it was a sin. And for some reason, we equated it to a bigger sin than anything else. As if some sins are worse than others. That is an entirely different issue, BUT- after getting to know Kenny, and talking to my friend Robynne I am in a dilemma. What I was taught for years, that it was a choice to be gay or not, isn't panning out. So that changes things in my mind. Regardless of the outcome of that question, treating others badly because of who they are is simply unchristian. I am studying and asking questions about it all now, and it's not popular with folks that I used to run with. They think I'm forsaking the doctrines of the Bible and stuff, but I don't know. I am still me, but now I actually know people that are gay. You can't argue with a persons testimony. What they experience is their experience. Does God hate gay people? I don't think he does. At least not the God that I serve. He is compassionate, and he understands the depths of my heart. Why wouldn't he understand the depths of others as well? So I am in a weird spot. I'm not popular with my fellow believers in this matter, and at the same time if I am honest I don't understand gay people because I'm not gay. I don't have to understand everything do I? I do understand hopes, dreams, ambitions and the pursuit of happiness. I will tell you that knowing someone who is gay and hearing their heart, it makes a huge difference. Setting the stereotypes aside and accepting and loving them as a friend and fellow human in the struggle called life is the first step. Holding no malice in our hearts for anyone tends to open our eyes to a bigger picture. I may not understand it all, but I'm trying to listen, love and be me. I for one am tired of being told how to feel about people that are different from me. Isn't that the first step to bigotry and prejudice? Shouldn't we be teaching how to love and encourage others and help them on their journey called life? I think so.
There you go. My :2cents
Quote from: Geekyfanboy on October 18, 2010, 09:00:38 AM
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on October 18, 2010, 06:55:38 AM
What would change if everyone all at once suddenly understood that homosexuality is not a choice?
Well for one thing everyone would know that we did not choose this lifestyle that it was chosen for us. May not seem like a big deal to you but believe me it's a big deal to gay people. Second thing for those who do believe in God it would mean that "he" made us this way.
Kenny, I didn't mean to belittle you or homosexuals. I just mean that it SHOULD be no more of a deal than straight people being straight. I guess I worded my feelings poorly, but I mean that to me, I love you for you, not for what you do. You're gay. To me it's nothing to get twisted up about. :)
Quote from: QuadShot on October 18, 2010, 09:07:59 AM
Quote from: Geekyfanboy on October 18, 2010, 09:00:38 AM
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on October 18, 2010, 06:55:38 AM
What would change if everyone all at once suddenly understood that homosexuality is not a choice?
Well for one thing everyone would know that we did not choose this lifestyle that it was chosen for us. May not seem like a big deal to you but believe me it's a big deal to gay people. Second thing for those who do believe in God it would mean that "he" made us this way.
Kenny, I didn't mean to belittle you or homosexuals. I just mean that it SHOULD be no more of a deal than straight people being straight. I guess I worded my feelings poorly, but I mean that to me, I love you for you, not for what you do. You're gay. To me it's nothing to get twisted up about. :)
Al I didn't feel belittled.. I was just answering Jobydrones question. I enjoyed your thoughts.. thanks.
Rick, very well put my friend. I too am usually not "welcome" in most churches any more because I have such a "radical" view on things. I hold with all my heart that God does NOT hate gay people. That is just nonsense. If God can love Satan (and he does) why not everyone? I believe that it's the intent to do others harm that God despises. While some Christians are brutalizing those they are afraid of, and let's face it, most hatred is merely an extension of ignorance and fear, they're not tending to their OWN faults and sins. Like the sin of judgement. "Thou shall NOT judge, lest YE be judged". I know that Kenny is a great guy (sorry Kenny if we're turnign this thread into a Kenny love fest! :)) and I truly don't care if he shares his love/feelings with a guy or a girl. If the SOLE purpose to life was to procreate, why not just make us with both sets of plumbing to avoid any problems?
The God I love does not hate anyone. He may not be to keen on some actions, like bullying or adultary, but He isn't going to punish us for who we love. My $2...(two cents is not enough payment for me :) )
Quote from: moyer777 on October 18, 2010, 09:01:40 AM
When I was pastoring full time at a church I would often get force fed how evil gay people were and how their agenda would destroy our families and Country. But the truth is that none of us really even knew people who were gay, and if we did we were out to "Convert" them to our way of thinking. Our picket signs only stirred up hatred and our leaders saying how immoral it was to be gay were being caught in affairs or in homesexual relationships themselves. I looked around and no one who came to the church was gay- or at least confessed that they were. And why would they? We weren't even attempting to understand. Because of the way we looked at the Bible we read that it was a sin. And for some reason, we equated it to a bigger sin than anything else. As if some sins are worse than others. That is an entirely different issue, BUT- after getting to know Kenny, and talking to my friend Robynne I am in a dilemma. What I was taught for years, that it was a choice to be gay or not, isn't panning out. So that changes things in my mind. Regardless of the outcome of that question, treating others badly because of who they are is simply unchristian. I am studying and asking questions about it all now, and it's not popular with folks that I used to run with. They think I'm forsaking the doctrines of the Bible and stuff, but I don't know. I am still me, but now I actually know people that are gay. You can't argue with a persons testimony. What they experience is their experience. Does God hate gay people? I don't think he does. At least not the God that I serve. He is compassionate, and he understands the depths of my heart. Why wouldn't he understand the depths of others as well? So I am in a weird spot. I'm not popular with my fellow believers in this matter, and at the same time if I am honest I don't understand gay people because I'm not gay. I don't have to understand everything do I? I do understand hopes, dreams, ambitions and the pursuit of happiness. I will tell you that knowing someone who is gay and hearing their heart, it makes a huge difference. Setting the stereotypes aside and accepting and loving them as a friend and fellow human in the struggle called life is the first step. Holding no malice in our hearts for anyone tends to open our eyes to a bigger picture. I may not understand it all, but I'm trying to listen, love and be me. I for one am tired of being told how to feel about people that are different from me. Isn't that the first step to bigotry and prejudice? Shouldn't we be teaching how to love and encourage others and help them on their journey called life? I think so.
There you go. My :2cents
Rick, theses are some of the best words that I've seen written in a while. I, long ago was a faithful church goer and when I had those same questions, I got faced with the same problems. I don't see how asking questions is anything means you have less faith, but when people get offended that questions are asked, that made me worry.
My God isn't something that should fear questions. My faith should embrace them. If my faith only has the answers to preselected questions, then something has to be missing. My God doesn't miss things like that. He puts the answers in my thoughts and heart. He makes me listen to the world and try to find those answers in his work.
In the end I came up with two things. Man is fallible. My God is not.
My God also doesn't create people that were born to fail some test of his.
In the end I decided that while there are many good words in the bible, it's not the voice of God. It is something written by man to codify wonder and majesty, but man is still man. Man has their own motives for doing things. I can't trust that what I read in the Bible is 100% what my God intended. I know from history that many powerful men help to shape those words. I know that only God shaped my soul. So in the end, that's what I go with. I go with the little voice inside that says "How do you want to be treated? Can you treat people the same?"
I also go with another voice that says "Would you love your child any less if they were different from the norm? Why not treat everyone as you would want the world to treat your family?"
I don't know all the answers, but I think we have personal instruction books in our souls that help us to find the answers to the questions that concern us the most.
Quote from: Geekyfanboy on October 18, 2010, 09:00:38 AM
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on October 18, 2010, 06:55:38 AM
What would change if everyone all at once suddenly understood that homosexuality is not a choice?
Well for one thing everyone would know that we did not choose this lifestyle that it was chosen for us. May not seem like a big deal to you but believe me it's a big deal to gay people. Second thing for those who do believe in God it would mean that "he" made us this way.
Maybe I should have said what
else would change?
Quote from: Bryancd on October 18, 2010, 07:07:45 AM
And again, simply consider the reciprocal. As a heterosexual, could you be "conditioned" to be homosexual?
I think I probably could, that guy that plays Eric in True Blood is freaking HOT!
Its a great question isnt it, a bit like when did you decide to breath. Its obvious really, you dont choose because like breathing you are born with you natural instinct. Of course this is my point of view. Now I have, if i think about it several friends who are gay (Kenny being one of those) and i love them dearly and i dont think anything of their sexuality. I even gave advice to two of them regarding relationship partners, did it matter that i prefere women, no because ultimately its all about love and getting along.
On a side note i got chatted up by a chap once in a club and when i said i like women he looked horrified (probably thought i was going to have a go), you should have seen him afterwards when i told him how proud i was that a gay man found me attractive, big boost to the ego. ;)
Well Meds, I too prefer women but you ARE damned cute! :)
Quote from: QuadShot on October 18, 2010, 12:05:52 PM
Well Meds, I too prefer women but you ARE damned cute! :)
It's his British charm.. all he has to do is say hello and I melt ;)
LOL, oh i'm blushing. Kenny, stop hee hee :D
As I said in the wrong thread, I agree!
Melt all you like just as long as you don't suggest he's from London! That voice is all wrong for London ;)
Yeah I have the British charm because i'm not from London lol ;)
Med's roughish good looks is making me consider changing my choice.... :)
Ha ha ha Bry, you kill me.
Haha, you silly people. ;)
King
I realized I was straight the first time I breast feed. You do the math!
Quote from: Blackride on October 19, 2010, 02:56:11 PM
I realized I was straight the first time I breast feed. You do the math!
OK, now that's a little weird....
Quote from: Bryancd on October 19, 2010, 04:24:05 PM
Quote from: Blackride on October 19, 2010, 02:56:11 PM
I realized I was straight the first time I breast feed. You do the math!
OK, now that's a little weird....
A little? lol ... jk obviously
Quote from: Blackride on October 19, 2010, 02:56:11 PM
I realized I was straight the first time I breast feed. You do the math!
But the question is "When did you "Chose" to be straight??" Not when did you realize you were straight.
Kenny, this is a good question and one that I don't think can be answered. Who chooses to be anything really? Oh we think we have free-will, and have the ability to choose what we want, but we don't. Most of "us" is pre-wired...in our DNA. I believe anyway. We may have some choice, like, do I drink the Scotch or the ale, but in the end, with the really big choices, I think we're destined to be, or choose, who we are.
Sorry, it's late, been doing some homework for a behavioral motivation class! :) Anyway, seriously, we are who we are. We're straight, or we're gay. I doubt we actually "choose" either one. My 2cents.
Here's another question....
When were you tempted to be heterosexual?
Quote from: QuadShot on October 19, 2010, 11:25:14 PM
Kenny, this is a good question and one that I don't think can be answered. Who chooses to be anything really? Oh we think we have free-will, and have the ability to choose what we want, but we don't. Most of "us" is pre-wired...in our DNA. I believe anyway. We may have some choice, like, do I drink the Scotch or the ale, but in the end, with the really big choices, I think we're destined to be, or choose, who we are.
Sorry, it's late, been doing some homework for a behavioral motivation class! :) Anyway, seriously, we are who we are. We're straight, or we're gay. I doubt we actually "choose" either one. My 2cents.
I think sexuality is more of a sliding scale than absolutes. some people are 100% straight some are 100% gay, but there are some that fall inbetween those ranges.
Quote from: X on October 20, 2010, 08:27:21 PM
Quote from: QuadShot on October 19, 2010, 11:25:14 PM
Kenny, this is a good question and one that I don't think can be answered. Who chooses to be anything really? Oh we think we have free-will, and have the ability to choose what we want, but we don't. Most of "us" is pre-wired...in our DNA. I believe anyway. We may have some choice, like, do I drink the Scotch or the ale, but in the end, with the really big choices, I think we're destined to be, or choose, who we are.
Sorry, it's late, been doing some homework for a behavioral motivation class! :) Anyway, seriously, we are who we are. We're straight, or we're gay. I doubt we actually "choose" either one. My 2cents.
I think sexuality is more of a sliding scale than absolutes. some people are 100% straight some are 100% gay, but there are some that fall inbetween those ranges.
Yeah X it's called the Kinsey scale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale)
0 Exclusively heterosexual
1 Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2 Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3 Equally heterosexual and homosexual; bisexual.
4 Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5 Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6 Exclusively homosexual
X Asexual, Non-Sexual
What does incidentally mean in regards to the scale?
Incidentally?? Lol.
Quote from: Geekyfanboy on October 20, 2010, 08:46:25 PM
Yeah X it's called the Kinsey scale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale)
...X Asexual, Non-Sexual
:roflmao :roflmao :roflmao
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on October 21, 2010, 06:42:43 AM
Quote from: Geekyfanboy on October 20, 2010, 08:46:25 PM
Yeah X it's called the Kinsey scale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale)
...X Asexual, Non-Sexual
:roflmao :roflmao :roflmao
LOL!!! If only that were the case. My life would be a lot easier.
That has to be the weirdest thing I've ever read. xD
King
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/10/more-privacy-headaches-for-facebook-gay-users-outed-to-advertisers.ars (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/10/more-privacy-headaches-for-facebook-gay-users-outed-to-advertisers.ars)
Quote from: X on October 21, 2010, 01:08:00 PM
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/10/more-privacy-headaches-for-facebook-gay-users-outed-to-advertisers.ars (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/10/more-privacy-headaches-for-facebook-gay-users-outed-to-advertisers.ars)
yep, be careful what you click on, everything is tracked, and with your name attached, they'll start knowing things about you didn't know.