I was having a discussion and we kind of agreed that if Chakotay was the captain and Janeway was the Maqui leader that Voyager was chasing.
Voyager often had the problem of the rest of the cast was more interesting than Janeway.
How different do you think it would have been?
It's hard for me to imagine that. I was fine with Janeway. I thought it was interesting having a woman as Captain. But certainly the show would have been very different.
I liked how Chakotay was Janeway's conscience a lot of the time. More then any other first officer in any other Trek series, this is where Chakotay shined. I couldn't see their roles reversed.
I would have to disagree with you.. One of the main reasons I loved Voyager was because of her strong female Captain. I thought the Janeway character was very interesting and complex. I think she developed very well over the seven seasons.
I couldn't see Chakotay as Captain of a Starship.. he never had that presence like Janeway did.
I would like to respectfully disagree with Kenny on that one. I think that Chakotay would make a fine captain. He was one at the start of the series. My problem is that if Chakotay was the Captain in Voyager, there wouldn't have been a series. I don't see Chakotay stranding his people by destroying the Caretaker Array and interfering with a sovereign culture.
While I understand what janeway did, I never could accept the reasoning behind them getting stranded in the Delta Quadrant.
Quote from: Just X on December 18, 2008, 12:16:40 PM
I would like to respectfully disagree with Kenny on that one. I think that Chakotay would make a fine captain. He was one at the start of the series.
If you noticed I said Captain of a "Starship". He was captain of a Maqui fighter. And what I really meant was I couldn't see Robert Beltram (Chakotay) play the Captain. In my opinion he doesn't have that kind of presence like Kate Mulgrew, Patrick Stewart, Avery Brooks or even The Shat.. when you see those actors in the role you feel like they are a person of authority. I just never felt that with Robert. And as always this is just my opinion.
I always thought he was kinda weak compared to Riker,Spock, and Dax. He was just perect to play second fiddle. Voyager was my third favorite series though :).
I really liked Janeway a lot, Chakotay was good, but not Captain material.
I think sometimes she did do OK. Others, it just felt really forced because they really wanted a female captain. There are definitely women in the Star Trek Universe that could have pulled it off. In my opinion, Jadzia Dax, Tasha Yar, and T'Pal had more of a commanding presence than Janeway did. Janeway seemed like the dorm mother of the Starship.
Quote from: AlanP on December 18, 2008, 04:11:06 PM
I think sometimes she did do OK. Others, it just felt really forced because they really wanted a female captain. There are definitely women in the Star Trek Universe that could have pulled it off. In my opinion, Jadzia Dax, Tasha Yar, and T'Pal had more of a commanding presence than Janeway did. Janeway seemed like the dorm mother of the Starship.
Jadzia, Tasha, and T'Pal?! I don't see any of them having the presence of a Kate Mulgrew.
Since I am a huge fan of classic movies I always thought Mulgrew was way too much like Kate Hepburn. I certainly don't think that Chokotay would have been a better captain. I personally think that someone else should have played the role. Mulgrew comes across as too "forced" and her authority does not seem real to me. I love the show but Janeway is my least favorite character of Voyager.
Kevin
There were times I thought she was really exciting such as Endgame, Relativity, and the Q episodes. But in Year of Hell and 11:59 I kept thinking this is almost like having Captain Katherine Pulaski or Captain Winn Adami. Just my opinion.
One thing that drives me crazy about Voyager is that the stories rarley centered around the main characters. On TOS most of the stories centered around Kirk, Spock and McCoy (mostly Kirk). It seems a majority of the stories centered around Kes, Nelix and 7 of 9. I for one am not a big Chakotay and feel he was pretty weak and added little. In fact, he annoys me a lot of the time.
Will
Quote from: AlanP on December 18, 2008, 04:35:34 PM
...But in Year of Hell and 11:59 I kept thinking this is almost like having Captain Katherine Pulaski or Captain Winn Adami. Just my opinion.
:jawdrop YIKES! "Captain Winn Adami"? Excuse me while I grab some sandpaper and try to scrub that concept out of my brain (LOL)
But seriously; I can't imagine anyone but Janeway commanding Voyager. At first, Mulgrew (sp?) kind of grated on me, but over the years, she grew on me. I think she was one of the finer Starship Captains we've had the chance to see in Trek-- She commanded the respect of her crew, she was a firm decision maker, and she stuck to her guns, even if some of her decisions were questionable. There's a saying that goes something like "making a bad decision is better than not making a decision at all". This is especially true in a leadership position. For some reason, whenever I think of Janeway, her strength and decisiveness are the two traits that always come to mind.
I really like Captain Janeway. I thought she was an excellent Starship captain. I really can't see their roles reversed.
For me Chakotay was as exciting as a wet fish... sorry. I really liked Janeway and kinda have a bit of thing for her :blush
I've often wondered if the dislike (sometimes boarding on hate) that some people felt for Voyager was to do with it having a female captain.
Quote from: celestialteapot on December 19, 2008, 02:14:11 AM
I've often wondered if the dislike (sometimes boarding on hate) that some people felt for Voyager was to do with it having a female captain.
I'm not sure if it was because of 'a' female Captain, or because it was 'that' female Captain.
Personally, I like her - both the character and actress - forceful when necessary but friendly where possible.
I think the whole 'Dorm Mother' thing was probably more Janeway than Mulgrew i.e. I think she was deliberately written that way. Given their predicament she had to concern herself with more than just 'the mission' and have more concern for the crew than a 'normal' captain would probably have needed to. Ther's no way to rotate someone off the ship at the next Starbase after all.
I really liked Janeway, i thought Kate played her very well. Chakotay was a bit wooden at times but still a good number two. I would have loved a film with Janeway in the lead.
The main problems I had with her was her smoker's voice and her need to always say a catch phrase like in a Schwarzenegger movie. Example, when she would say "Time's Up!" while crashing Voyager into the time ship in Year of Hell part 2.
I know the Sisco character origanly wasn't black but they made him black so they could get Avery Brooks to play him. It never felt to me that they were trying to force that to work. It just happened naturally. With Janeway, I think the producers went into it demanding, we must do a female captain this time.
I brought up Winn earlier and since then I had a thought. The Thirty Days episode reminds me of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. In Cuckoo's Nest, the point of the movie is that men naturally want to be free but are controlled and subdued by women. Much like Paris being thrown in jail (by a female captain) and demoted for his free spirit initiative to save the ocean.
I had no problems with her voice, in fact i'd go so far to say that i found her huskiness rather sexy. She oozed authority but with feeling. Now Avery Brooks comes from the Shatner school of acting, all stops and pauses. ;)
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on December 19, 2008, 02:08:30 PM
I had no problems with her voice, in fact i'd go so far to say that i found her huskiness rather sexy. She oozed authority but with feeling. Now Avery Brooks comes from the Shatner school of acting, all stops and pauses. ;)
You are joking about Brooks right? I mean if I needed to trust any Captain with my life, it would be Ben Sisko without hesitation or regret. I would even go on record and say that for the job that he was hired to do, Ben Sisko out performed every other Captain while doing everything in his power to protect the ideals of Starfleet and the UFP. I'd serve with all the other Captains, I'd be hesitant about janeway, but I'd do it, but I would die proudly under Sisko's command if necessary because I know that he wouldn't let it be for nothing.
Yeah i am joking mate i really liked Sisko, In fact again like Janeway i wished they had a film with Sisko in it. I adored (with a passion) the tribbles tribute episode. I always had a this thing of feeling a bit empty at the end of DS9. Don't know why. I just would have liked to have seen Ben given a starship and we could then have had a TV film or two. Thats a personal thing though i like to have open options. I find it hard to choose between Voyager and DS9, some of my favorite characters were on DS9, but i love a good traveling program like what Voyager was. Either way how cool would it have been to have had Janeway and Sisko together in something.
Sisko is my favorite Captian by far. However, another thing you have to think about when you consider Janeway's 'captaining' ability: She was put in a very strange and very stressful situation. Throughout the series you see the responsibility getting to her, but I'm amazed she didn't have a complete breakdown. Makes you wonder how Picard or Sisko would have handled being stranded alone so far from home. Would they have held their ground on principles like Janeway did?
I am one of those people who enjoys ALL of the Trek series, yet consider DS9 my least favorite. But Voyager was fun, and I think Kate was the perfect choice.
First of all, I think she carried herself well as a Captain. I completely bought her as skipper of a starship.
Secondly, I do think she and her voice are very sexy...GRROWL!
Thirdly, I could have enjoyed Voyager every bit as much with no Chakotay. I've seen Beltran in other things, and he isnt a very good actor.
I've always felt Janeway was very Kirk-like. Diplomatic, but willing and quick to throw a punch. I think thats why Voyager and Enterprise appealed to me more. The 'Trek' part of Star Trek is important to me.
Enterprise is still at the bottom of my list. But that is through ignorance and i freely admit that. I've seen every TOS, TOSC, TNG, VGR, DS9 but not all of the Enterprise series and since I've been listening to Rico's talk on them I've got more intrested and now seek them out on my sky channels. And i am liking what i see.
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on December 30, 2008, 03:08:11 AM
Enterprise is still at the bottom of my list. But that is through ignorance and i freely admit that. I've seen every TOS, TOSC, TNG, VGR, DS9 but not all of the Enterprise series and since I've been listening to Rico's talk on them I've got more intrested and now seek them out on my sky channels. And i am liking what i see.
Enterprise is a lot like DS9 in this respect. It tends to be more story-arc oriented. You really need to see it in order (or at least each season in order) especially season 3. It's gotten to the point where I can't really choose my favourite anymore aside from saying DS9 is my favourite, even then it only edges out the rest by a nose. The rest are all on equal footing for different reasons.
Quote from: celestialteapot on December 19, 2008, 02:14:11 AM
For me Chakotay was as exciting as a wet fish.
I think that's insulting to fish.
Sounds a bit fishy to me Dan.
Quote from: billybob476 on December 30, 2008, 05:34:51 AM
Enterprise is a lot like DS9 in this respect. It tends to be more story-arc oriented. You really need to see it in order (or at least each season in order) especially season 3. It's gotten to the point where I can't really choose my favourite anymore aside from saying DS9 is my favourite, even then it only edges out the rest by a nose. The rest are all on equal footing for different reasons.
If you only watch one season of Enterprise all through then make sure it's season 3. At that stage they'd got their act together and knew exactly what they were about. Seasons 4 to 7 really looked very promising if they'd carried on in the same vein.
The small matter of the cancellation got in the way, of course. Season 4 was good but very fragmented as a result although there are a number of good 2 or 3 parters in there.
I've always find it interesting that so many folks don't like Janeway as captain. I felt she was a great blend of a "take charge" and "make the hard choices" attitude, while really caring about her crew. I felt she came across as seeing the big picture and making good decisions. I thought she was very clever and displayed a commanding presence. I also felt that Kate Mulgrew played the part very well. I had no problem liking her or believing her in the role.
Maybe it wouldn't be bad having a dorm mother as the captain, especially so far from home.
Quote from: Tyler on January 02, 2009, 06:19:31 PM
I've always find it interesting that so many folks don't like Janeway as captain. I felt she was a great blend of a "take charge" and "make the hard choices" attitude, while really caring about her crew. I felt she came across as seeing the big picture and making good decisions. I thought she was very clever and displayed a commanding presence. I also felt that Kate Mulgrew played the part very well. I had no problem liking her or believing her in the role.
Maybe it wouldn't be bad having a dorm mother as the captain, especially so far from home.
I knew you would be a good addition to the forums :) <------ Huge Voyager fan.
Thanks, Kenny. I am as well. Voyager often gets cited as the weakest series, but I really enjoyed it. I think it had more mind-opening storylines in some ways than the other series. Deep concepts were presented in many episodes. Voyager sometimes reminded me of the Twilight Zone in terms of the weird situations that would often be presented. I think some folks missed the familiar territory of the Federation, but I felt the Delta quadrant setting freed up the writers to explore some very new and interesting concepts.
And I liked all the characters ... especially when Seven came aboard.
Quote from: Tyler on January 03, 2009, 02:46:58 PM
Thanks, Kenny. I am as well. Voyager often gets cited as the weakest series, but I really enjoyed it. I think it had more mind-opening storylines in some ways than the other series. Deep concepts were presented in many episodes. Voyager sometimes reminded me of the Twilight Zone in terms of the weird situations that would often be presented. I think some folks missed the familiar territory of the Federation, but I felt the Delta quadrant setting freed up the writers to explore some very new and interesting concepts.
And I liked all the characters ... especially when Seven came aboard.
I agree with a lot of that but the show did have problems. First, the villans wern't very impressive until the Borg and the Q episodes. The Kazon and the Vidiians just weren't as impressive as the Borg, Klingons or the Jem'Hadar. However in those early seasons they did have episodes, hated by fans, but that I defend as some of the best Trek they've ever done. Like the 37s, and the dinosaur episode and future's end.
Next, in contrast to TNG and DS9 there is less character growth. The ones that stand out to me are the ones who grew over that seven years. Tom Paris, the Doctor, Torres, and Nelix came a long way through the journey. Other characters were the same from beginning to end. The character growth was one of the things that made DS9 work so well. They all ended up miles from where they started.
And I know Braga liked time travel episodes and Roddenberry tried to avoid them so when Braga got control he did a lot. And I think most of them were really good episodes.
And of all the series to do the hollodeck malfunction episodes, Voyager did them really badly.
Also, I know this is explosive and that we will have to agree to disagree, but sometimes I felt like Braga went to far with stuff like Mortal Coil. Having someone die and brought back to see there is no afterlife is going to step on a few toes. Watching it made me uneasy.
To me, Voyager at it's best is about Tom, his buddy Harry, his love, B'Elanna and stories about the three of them. As well as the Doctor, a computer program, 7 the Borg, and all the neat things they can do. The stories, I agree that the Twilight Zone style stuff was the better stuff.
You make good points. The first seasons, like TNG and DS9, floundered a bit for sure as the show found its way. Kes was never a favorite of mine. And there were some horrendous Voyager episodes. I remember swearing off the series during the initial run after "Threshold." I didn't get reacquainted with the later seasons until after Seven came onboard and the Borg episodes became a staple.
There was less character growth on Voyager than on DS9 certainly in which the central character took on a whole new life at the series' end. I'm not sure I agree there was less character development, however, than on TNG. Other than everyone on the ship feeling a fondness for each other, I never felt there was much character growth during the TV run of Next Generation.
Quote from: Tyler on January 03, 2009, 08:10:34 PM
I'm not sure I agree there was less character development, however, than on TNG. Other than everyone on the ship feeling a fondness for each other, I never felt there was much character growth during the TV run of Next Generation.
I'm not sure I totally agree with you here Tyler. Data's character grew tremendously and so did Worf's. Over the course of the series these two characters transformed into better beings than they were when the series started. I'm not sure we can say there was a lot of character development for the rest of the cast but those two grew a lot.
Kevin