TREKS IN SCI-FI FORUM

Main Decks => Star Trek => Topic started by: davekill on August 10, 2008, 11:33:02 AM

Title: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: davekill on August 10, 2008, 11:33:02 AM
Does anyone know the origins of the starfleet assignment emblem?
Since Star Trek appeared in the 60's, it looks like it may have been influenced by the formal NASA seal from 1959.
The U.S. Air Force Space Command emblem looks kind of familiar ;)
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: wraith1701 on August 10, 2008, 06:48:53 PM
Not sure where the famous delta itself originated.  I do know that in the TOS era, each starship had it's own symbol.  What we now know as the Starfleet Symbol was once the symbol of the USS Enterprise (1701).  All of the other ships in the fleet had their own unique symbol.

 If I understand correctly, the symbol of the Enterprise was adopted as the symbol of starfleet in honor of Kirk and his crew, and to acknowledge all of the great work they did.
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Deb on August 24, 2009, 02:00:36 PM
I’ve just finished Start Trek “Federation”, by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens. (ISBN 0-671-89423-4).

Chapter Ten (page 137 of my copy) is headed “London, Optimal Republic of Great Britain, Earth. Earth Standard June 21, 2078” and features a discussion between Zephram Cochrane and Adrik Thorsen (the baddie). It’s a BRILLIANT explanation of how the Starfleet emblem came about – might not be completely scientifically sound, but, then we’ve yet to discover warp speed, science may change its mind!

Reference this site - http://falcon.trekufp.org/databank/tos-federation.txt (http://falcon.trekufp.org/databank/tos-federation.txt)
And then search on (I used Cntrl-F) “then he drew”.

FYI the first diagram is of a star. representing light speed.


The next stage has an inverted V over the top of the star representing the energy expenditure curve (the faster you go, the more massive you are).

The final stage has an additional inverted V added below the star, offset slightly to the right representing "the literal, bottom-line energy expenditure for my superimpellor. It's well below infinity, easily obtainable from a basic matter-antimatter reaction. But look how it's offset--separated--from the standard energy expenditure of normal space-time"

Have a look at a Starfleet emblem, it’ll look incredibly familiar!!
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Rico on August 24, 2009, 02:18:16 PM
Sounds like a reasonable answer.  I think the costume people under William Ware Theiss on TOS actually came up with the "real world" costumes and emblems.  But as far as "in-Trek answers", that sounds like a good one Deb.  (Oh - welcome to the forum!)
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Bryancd on August 24, 2009, 03:19:19 PM
Indeed, they had specific insignia's for each ship.


Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Feathers on August 27, 2009, 02:59:52 AM
If I remember correctly, the original Enterprise had the symbol in red along the side of the secondary hull. Is that true for the other ships too or did they all incorporate the same 'Enterprise' logo on the side?

The thing that strikes me from his is that there never was one Starfleet/Federation logo in the original series, or if there was, I never identified it.
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: ChadH on August 27, 2009, 07:37:02 AM
In the TOS episode "The Alternative Factor" Capt. Kirk receives a message from Commodor Barstow of Starfleet HQ. The insignia on his uniform may be the Starfleet/Federation insignia or possibly just the Starfleet HQ insignia. I haven't been able to find a clearer image of the Commodore. If anyone else can, please post it. I'd very much like to see it.

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/mediaview?id=12381&episodeid=68700&count=-1 (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/mediaview?id=12381&episodeid=68700&count=-1)

**EDIT**(After another look at the insignia from Davekill's original post I think this may be the Starfleet Command insignia circa 2161-2270. Can't be sure though.)
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Jen on August 27, 2009, 10:54:36 AM
A very interesting topic. Great points everyone. Thanks for posting the images. :)
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Darth Gaos on September 02, 2009, 11:36:13 AM
I’ve just finished Start Trek “Federation”, by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens. (ISBN 0-671-89423-4).

Chapter Ten (page 137 of my copy) is headed “London, Optimal Republic of Great Britain, Earth. Earth Standard June 21, 2078” and features a discussion between Zephram Cochrane and Adrik Thorsen (the baddie). It’s a BRILLIANT explanation of how the Starfleet emblem came about – might not be completely scientifically sound, but, then we’ve yet to discover warp speed, science may change its mind!

Reference this site - [url]http://falcon.trekufp.org/databank/tos-federation.txt[/url] ([url]http://falcon.trekufp.org/databank/tos-federation.txt[/url])
And then search on (I used Cntrl-F) “then he drew”.

FYI the first diagram is of a star. representing light speed.


The next stage has an inverted V over the top of the star representing the energy expenditure curve (the faster you go, the more massive you are).

The final stage has an additional inverted V added below the star, offset slightly to the right representing "the literal, bottom-line energy expenditure for my superimpellor. It's well below infinity, easily obtainable from a basic matter-antimatter reaction. But look how it's offset--separated--from the standard energy expenditure of normal space-time"

Have a look at a Starfleet emblem, it’ll look incredibly familiar!!



I asked this question a long time ago because I heard the explanation given by Deb as well, but I also knew that each ship had its own unique symbol so I was trying to get to the bottonm of it.

Just glad I am not the only one who had heard the "warp theory" design story
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Bromptonboy on September 02, 2009, 04:56:47 PM
Indeed, they had specific insignia's for each ship.



Cool!  looks like the common thread in them is the star with the extended top.  Thanks for that pic.
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Bryancd on September 02, 2009, 05:21:52 PM
If I remember correctly, the original Enterprise had the symbol in red along the side of the secondary hull. Is that true for the other ships too or did they all incorporate the same 'Enterprise' logo on the side?

The thing that strikes me from his is that there never was one Starfleet/Federation logo in the original series, or if there was, I never identified it.

Good question, Mike. All the footage of other Constitution class ships in TOS are either stock footage of the Enterprise or in the "Doomsday Machine" episode, and old AMT model dressed with a different hull registry.
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: davekill on September 02, 2009, 06:47:39 PM
I've just finished Start Trek Federation, by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens. (ISBN 0-671-89423-4).

Chapter Ten (page 137 of my copy) is headed “London, Optimal Republic of Great Britain, Earth. Earth Standard June 21, 2078” and features a discussion between Zephram Cochrane and Adrik Thorsen (the baddie). It’s a BRILLIANT explanation of how the Starfleet emblem came about – might not be completely scientifically sound, but, then we’ve yet to discover warp speed, science may change its mind!

Reference this site - [url]http://falcon.trekufp.org/databank/tos-federation.txt[/url] ([url]http://falcon.trekufp.org/databank/tos-federation.txt[/url])
And then search on (I used Cntrl-F) “then he drew”.

FYI the first diagram is of a star. representing light speed.


The next stage has an inverted V over the top of the star representing the energy expenditure curve (the faster you go, the more massive you are).

The final stage has an additional inverted V added below the star, offset slightly to the right representing "the literal, bottom-line energy expenditure for my superimpellor. It's well below infinity, easily obtainable from a basic matter-antimatter reaction. But look how it's offset--separated--from the standard energy expenditure of normal space-time"

Have a look at a Starfleet emblem, it’ll look incredibly familiar!!



Nice explanation by Zephram Cochrane himself ;)

I think I read on memory alpha that the Federation adopted the "arrow head" design for use as an insignia on the hauls of the rest of the fleet after it first appeared on the Enterprise.

I'm reading Diane Carey's Final Frontier. In this story of the early Starfleet, the Enterprise has no markings. Good book - a real page turner.
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Rico on September 02, 2009, 06:58:50 PM
If I remember correctly, the original Enterprise had the symbol in red along the side of the secondary hull. Is that true for the other ships too or did they all incorporate the same 'Enterprise' logo on the side?

The thing that strikes me from his is that there never was one Starfleet/Federation logo in the original series, or if there was, I never identified it.

Good question, Mike. All the footage of other Constitution class ships in TOS are either stock footage of the Enterprise or in the "Doomsday Machine" episode, and old AMT model dressed with a different hull registry.

I'll try and see what they did on the enhanced effects for some of the TOS episodes that show other Starships.
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Rico on September 02, 2009, 07:30:38 PM
Grabbed a couple screenshots off the enhanced "Doomsday Machine" episode of the Constellation.  Looks like they didn't change any of the ship markings from what was seen before in TOS.  Only the registry number was changed to NCC-1017 for Decker's ship.  This is a cool episode with some great added effects though.

Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Bromptonboy on September 03, 2009, 07:22:30 AM
Grabbed a couple screenshots off the enhanced "Doomsday Machine" episode of the Constellation.  Looks like they didn't change any of the ship markings from what was seen before in TOS.  Only the registry number was changed to NCC-1017 for Decker's ship.  This is a cool episode with some great added effects though.


I have yet to watch the enhanced TOS episodes.  I had no idea that they did so much.  I'll have to see if they are on Netflix.  Are there any other particular episodes that got really kicked up a notch (to borrow Emeril's catchphrase)?  Thanks
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Rico on September 03, 2009, 10:05:39 AM
Grabbed a couple screenshots off the enhanced "Doomsday Machine" episode of the Constellation.  Looks like they didn't change any of the ship markings from what was seen before in TOS.  Only the registry number was changed to NCC-1017 for Decker's ship.  This is a cool episode with some great added effects though.


I have yet to watch the enhanced TOS episodes.  I had no idea that they did so much.  I'll have to see if they are on Netflix.  Are there any other particular episodes that got really kicked up a notch (to borrow Emeril's catchphrase)?  Thanks

All are worth watching - in my opinion.  A few real cool ones that spring to mind are: "The Doomsday Machine", "The Tholian Web", "The Immunity Syndrome", "The Ultimate Computer", "The Menagerie", and "The Cage."  Anything that has a fair numbers of effects done for them.  I'll try and stream "The Doomsday Machine" later on today to show you what I mean.
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: Feathers on September 03, 2009, 11:12:32 AM
In asking the question I asked mid-thread, I never even considered the reality of how the show would have been made i.e. stock footage and models. The screen shots of the new effects seem a little ambiguous too. I'll have to wait until I get home and look at the streamed version too I guess.
Title: Re: Origin of the starfleet emblem
Post by: ChadH on September 04, 2009, 09:34:38 AM
Grabbed a couple screenshots off the enhanced "Doomsday Machine" episode of the Constellation.  Looks like they didn't change any of the ship markings from what was seen before in TOS.  Only the registry number was changed to NCC-1017 for Decker's ship.  This is a cool episode with some great added effects though.


I have yet to watch the enhanced TOS episodes.  I had no idea that they did so much.  I'll have to see if they are on Netflix.  Are there any other particular episodes that got really kicked up a notch (to borrow Emeril's catchphrase)?  Thanks
Just a quick comment on the enhanced TOS episodes. They did a great job on the effects, but the editing of the episodes themselves is a bit wonky. "Kirk was just on the bridge a moment ago, but now he's running around on the planet's surface?" That sort of thing. Other than that I really like them. Picky,picky.