I have to say, after all these years, I am proud of our efforts and those of our allies to kill this man. Their sacrifice wasn't in vane and the world is a safer place.
According to the Washington Post, somebody let this cat out of the bag before the official White House announcement.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/source-al-qaida-head-bin-laden-dead-us-in-possession-of-body-obama-to-speak-sunday-night/2011/05/01/AF1D5hVF_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/source-al-qaida-head-bin-laden-dead-us-in-possession-of-body-obama-to-speak-sunday-night/2011/05/01/AF1D5hVF_story.html)
Great news! I am watching the President live on the BBC now...God Bless the US!
:flying
Well to his credit he's good at hide and seek, not so good at being bulletproof. I'm glad he's been taken care of after so long.
yes i just heard!
i remember back on 9/11 my uncle was at our house and we were watching the towers fall over and over again. my mom thought this was not age appropriate so she said "let's go watch jay jay the jet airplane!"
Hmmm...
Just watching the news now.
My initial reaction is good riddance to murdering ba€%#*d and well done all the brave soldiers from all countries alive & passed. My thoughts now are hoping we have no revenge attacks. Be aware everyone that security will be tightened and for obvious reasons.
It also appears they buried him at sea to stop and shrines being built. Poor sharks, imagine eating him.
Good riddance!
Should be interesting as the details emerge about how he was hiding in plain sight like that in a large city in Pakistan. There is still his #2 to find as well - I think that most operational details were not being handled by OBL. We'll see.
Operationally, I would think this will make zero difference (other than annoying the people on the sharp end). It's not like he was a one man terrorist band.
Yeah, from an operational standpoint for Al Queda it's not likely a big deal. From a motivational/inspirational/and possibly recruiting standpoint perhaps it is more impactfull.
i don't understand it. even though he did bad things, and killing him is a way to stop those bad things, why kill him? why not put him in prison for life? ???
sure it would cost more money, but still.
Quote from: turtlesrock on May 02, 2011, 07:12:53 AM
i don't understand it. even though he did bad things, and killing him is a way to stop those bad things, why kill him? why not put him in prison for life? ???
sure it would cost more money, but still.
That could still provide him a platform. It also could keep his support alive and well for years to come. His death may result in some short term feeling of martyrdom and inflame his support, but that will likely be short lived. You don't leave guys like this alive.
Quote from: Bryancd on May 02, 2011, 07:16:03 AM
Quote from: turtlesrock on May 02, 2011, 07:12:53 AM
i don't understand it. even though he did bad things, and killing him is a way to stop those bad things, why kill him? why not put him in prison for life? ???
sure it would cost more money, but still.
That could still provide him a platform. It also could keep his support alive and well for years to come. His death may result in some short term feeling of martyrdom and inflame his support, but that will likely be short lived. You don't leave guys like this alive.
but doesn't his death anger his supporters even more? possibly to the point of another attack?
Quote from: turtlesrock on May 02, 2011, 07:17:17 AM
Quote from: Bryancd on May 02, 2011, 07:16:03 AM
Quote from: turtlesrock on May 02, 2011, 07:12:53 AM
i don't understand it. even though he did bad things, and killing him is a way to stop those bad things, why kill him? why not put him in prison for life? ???
sure it would cost more money, but still.
That could still provide him a platform. It also could keep his support alive and well for years to come. His death may result in some short term feeling of martyrdom and inflame his support, but that will likely be short lived. You don't leave guys like this alive.
but doesn't his death anger his supporters even more? possibly to the point of another attack?
Possibly, but it will likely be short term in nature. Keep him sitting in a US prison and it's game on for a long time.
Media analysis over here suggests that a living but captive Bin Laden would provoke a larger terrorist reaction than a dead Bin Laden. Obviously, I've no idea if that's true or not (and I'm not offering it as a defence for his killing).
Either way, what's done is done. At this point I think the bigger issue, is how the US handles this. At the moment, the pictures of Americans rejoicing in the streets are not playing universally well (not here anyway).
Quote from: Feathers on May 02, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Media analysis over here suggests that a living but captive Bin Laden would provoke a larger terrorist reaction than a dead Bin Laden. Obviously, I've no idea if that's true or not (and I'm not offering it as a defence for his killing).
Either way, what's done is done. At this point I think the bigger issue, is how the US handles this. At the moment, the pictures of Americans rejoicing in the streets are not playing universally well (not here anyway).
That's the way I read it as well, Mike. In regards to the spontaneous clebration at Ground Zero, it was pretty small and it is New Youk where the feeling are still very raw ten years later. I doubt you will see anyhting else like that occuring.
No matter how you look at this, there was no right way of dealing with him. We just have to hope killing him was the lesser of two evils...
King
Quote from: Feathers on May 02, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Media analysis over here suggests that a living but captive Bin Laden would provoke a larger terrorist reaction than a dead Bin Laden. Obviously, I've no idea if that's true or not (and I'm not offering it as a defence for his killing).
Either way, what's done is done. At this point I think the bigger issue, is how the US handles this. At the moment, the pictures of Americans rejoicing in the streets are not playing universally well (not here anyway).
Gotta love analysts. Umm, I'm guessing and assuming there wasn't an option of "bringing him in alive" so the point is moot.
As far as "celebration" here. There are over 300 million American's around. 99.99% of us are at work, school, home, etc. doing our normal thing today. People really need to put things in perspective. I barely have time to cut my own lawn, let alone run around in the streets banging a drum for some dead despot.
Yeah, the characterization that we are celebrating in the streets is extreme hyperbole. Nothing of the sort is happening.
Quote from: Bryancd on May 02, 2011, 08:31:33 AM
Yeah, the characterization that we are celebrating in the streets is extreme hyperbole. Nothing of the sort is happening.
I think that's called bad journalism. ;)
Quote from: Feathers on May 02, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Either way, what's done is done. At this point I think the bigger issue, is how the US handles this. At the moment, the pictures of Americans rejoicing in the streets are not playing universally well (not here anyway).
Oh well. I imagine that very few Americans give a damn how the rest of the world views our reaction to this insane murderer's successful assassination.
Quote from: Rico on May 02, 2011, 08:34:11 AM
Quote from: Bryancd on May 02, 2011, 08:31:33 AM
Yeah, the characterization that we are celebrating in the streets is extreme hyperbole. Nothing of the sort is happening.
I think that's called bad journalism. ;)
I think the bigger celebrations were handled on Twitter/FaceBook....as we worked. ;)
King
Well it's not a great big celebration, but everybody seems to be pretty glad about it. I keep hearing about it everywhere. So depends on your definition of celebration.
And so I heard Osama and his people wouldn't surrender and so the US Forces had no other choice but to just kill them. So I've heard of course (I haven't really been following it all that much, just picking up on information).
The rest of the world matters my friend. Don't forget that.
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on May 02, 2011, 08:55:24 AM
The rest of the world matters my friend. Don't forget that.
Well, there is that one little bit that we don't talk about... ;)
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on May 02, 2011, 08:55:24 AM
The rest of the world matters my friend. Don't forget that.
Of course, and I wouldn't suggest otherwise. I'll just say, that personally, I don't give a crap if anyone, American or not, wags their head disapprovingly when we celebrate the fact that a terrorist murderer responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocents has been brought to justice. I imagine many Americans feel the same. I would guess that the families and loved ones affected by the Al Quada train bombings in London are feeling very strong feelings today as well.
Quote from: turtlesrock on May 02, 2011, 07:17:17 AM
Quote from: Bryancd on May 02, 2011, 07:16:03 AM
Quote from: turtlesrock on May 02, 2011, 07:12:53 AM
i don't understand it. even though he did bad things, and killing him is a way to stop those bad things, why kill him? why not put him in prison for life? ???
sure it would cost more money, but still.
That could still provide him a platform. It also could keep his support alive and well for years to come. His death may result in some short term feeling of martyrdom and inflame his support, but that will likely be short lived. You don't leave guys like this alive.
but doesn't his death anger his supporters even more? possibly to the point of another attack?
If you put a snake in a cage, he'll constantly attempt to escape, and there is a very real danger he may bite you while you try feeding him. Cut the head off that snake...well, HE can't harm up. It's easier to deal with possible retaliation for a death then it is to keep someone locked up. His supporters would try even more desparate things to break him free, causing massive loss of lives.
This is not a debate I want to partake in, nor is analyzing this situation something I wish to do. What happened happened. We do not know what the actual situation was like. I'm quite sure that they did what needed to be done, period. What matters is that it was done. Although the world may be the tiniest bit better without the likes of Bin Laden, I do not join in the celebration that someone has been killed. Yes, he was a bad man. Yes he is (at least partly) responsible for a great many deaths. But the bottom line is our soldiers were forced to take a life. We should never "party" when a life is taken. Not even a life that is so horribly outside social norms that they are viewed as evil. I think that we need to say a prayer for everyone affected by this. Our side, their side, what does it matter? Until we can feel regret over killing another human being, yes, even someone like Bin Laden, we'll never get past this. I've read several things that say that the victims and families of the 9/11 attack finally have closure. Really? You think so? This solved NOTHING. Killing Bin Laden won't ever bring those lost back. Justice WAS served. But closure? I think not.
That's all I'm saying about this. Soap box put away! :)
Look The Isle of White is perfectly fine Bry ;)
I'm 100% sure those (myself included) affected by the London attacks are very pleased the SOB is dead but I don't see celebrations here. We're a country who has been attacked by terrorists since the 1960's, and know that all is not at peace just yet. When I know another soldier and their families won't suffer, when I know another innocent victim won't be killed then I'll celebrate.
On another point I'm glad they killed him, if they locked him up he'd be in a nice comfy cell, a tv (with cable), rights to his countries food, prayer time, rest time, showers etc. He's been in caves and safe houses for ten years. Locking him up would have been giving him a hotel.
It sounded like he was living pretty comfy as it was! That's alarming, amazing how the Pakistan's weren't able to find him living around the corner from a military academy and all. ::)
In regards to the actual killing, I think it's important to recall that we are in a declared stat of war with Al Queda, assuming you can declare war on a non-nation, and as they head of that organization, he is a credible military target. This wasn't a murder, it was an act of war.
The killing part will be debated for many years to come. I don't disagree with it, though it makes me wonder what would have happened at the end of WW2 if Hitler hadn't committed suicide.
Quote from: billybob476 on May 02, 2011, 09:52:59 AM
The killing part will be debated for many years to come. I don't disagree with it, though it makes me wonder what would have happened at the end of WW2 if Hitler hadn't committed suicide.
Assuming he was captured, likely tried and executed. Similar to what happend to Hussein. Both had lost the support of their people, both were the heads of states which engaged in genocide. A lot of similarities and likely similar results.
There could have been a lot of shooting in the raid, we can't assume he was going to just surrender.
Well, we did figure Pakistan was hiding him, this seems to prove it...
King
Quote from: Kingisaaclinksr on May 02, 2011, 10:07:17 AM
Well, we did figure Pakistan was hiding him, this seems to prove it...
King
Ooooh, be very, very careful chucking accusations like that around...
Quote from: Feathers on May 02, 2011, 10:18:52 AM
Quote from: Kingisaaclinksr on May 02, 2011, 10:07:17 AM
Well, we did figure Pakistan was hiding him, this seems to prove it...
King
Ooooh, be very, very careful chucking accusations like that around...
Yeah, I don't think that was a widely accepted conspiracy and although this looks bad, I'm not ready to throw them under the bus.
There's been a bit of discussion here about whether Pakistan knew the US were going in.
Firstly, it would have been an act of war against Pakistan if they didn't and secondly, helicopters aren't exactly invisible so the feeling seems to be that Pakistan knew this was happening even though no ones admitting it.
Quote from: Feathers on May 02, 2011, 10:23:45 AM
... and secondly, helicopters aren't exactly invisible so ...
One word..."Airwolf"!!! :)
Quote from: QuadShot on May 02, 2011, 10:30:44 AM
Quote from: Feathers on May 02, 2011, 10:23:45 AM
... and secondly, helicopters aren't exactly invisible so ...
One word..."Airwolf"!!! :)
Whisper mode!
(Aledgedly a simulator manufacturer who shall remain nameless asked Boeing how 'whisper mode' worked on the Chinook a few years ago. The bigger surprise was that it was a serious question from an organisation that ought to have known better.)
AP is reporting that bin Laden was firing on the Special Ops soldiers during the raid, so there likely was a firefight which contributred to his being shot. ike i said above, i don;'t think he had his hands up to surrender and was gunned down.
Makes you wonder doesnt it that the UK pledges 650 million pounds in aid to Pakistan only a few weeks ago and suddenly he turns up in a massage parlour eating fondue. (Ps legal department I made the last bit up)
I realize that's a conspiracy, but his location being like it was is a really suspicious deal. Whether Pakistan knew or not is uP for the politicans to decide at this point.
King
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on May 02, 2011, 11:19:58 AM
Makes you wonder doesnt it that the UK pledges 650 million pounds in aid to Pakistan only a few weeks ago and suddenly he turns up in a massage parlour eating fondue. (Ps legal department I made the last bit up)
The informant who has been working with the CIA for a number of years now to set this up has been allegedly whisked to the US along with his family and is eligable for a $20million reward. Well earned, I would say.
I suspect with the killing of Bin Laden, that no one is real sure what the outcome and response will be, and all the leaders are probably holding their breath somewhat. I have not read a lot of details on what happened, but sort of sounded like the news on his death was leaked and they had to address it before they may have wanted to.
I wonder how people who lost family or friends to the terrorist events over the past few years feel, I wonder if they feel any sort of closure, or a hollow or anti climatic feeling.
I am not sure, but I feel a bit more uneasy today then I did yesterday, not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing.
Quote from: Bryancd on May 02, 2011, 11:31:17 AM
The informant who has been working with the CIA for a number of years now to set this up has been allegedly whisked to the US along with his family and is eligable for a $20million reward. Well earned, I would say.
Well earned in deed. I hope a change of ID and a media blanket is on issue as well.
Meds - this can't be too far from where Dr. John Watson took a Jezail bullet in his leg during the 2nd Anglo-Afghan campaign..?
((I know...off topic))
:)
LOL no I'm afraid not Pete, Watson was shot in Maiwand in Aphganistan as i believe Bin Laden was killed in Abbottabad in Pakistan.
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on May 02, 2011, 09:24:04 AM
I'm 100% sure those (myself included) affected by the London attacks are very pleased the SOB is dead but I don't see celebrations here. We're a country who has been attacked by terrorists since the 1960's, and know that all is not at peace just yet. When I know another soldier and their families won't suffer, when I know another innocent victim won't be killed then I'll celebrate.
I guess all I'm saying is let us all try not to be quite so judgemental. I didn't see anyone celebrating in the street here in the USA either, but if I did I wouldn't presume to know what motivated them to do so, and I would at the least join them in celebrating the fact that a known terrorist murderer has finally been brought to justice. I agree with you 100% that Osama's killing does very little to stem the tide of terrorism, and that an end to all war, terror, and suffering in the world would REALLY be something to celebrate. We're certainly not there yet, though. If you wait for that to celebrate anything, I fear you'll be waiting a very very long time.
This is all I have to say on the subject...
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Martin Luther King, Jr
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on May 02, 2011, 01:51:56 PM
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on May 02, 2011, 09:24:04 AM
I'm 100% sure those (myself included) affected by the London attacks are very pleased the SOB is dead but I don't see celebrations here. We're a country who has been attacked by terrorists since the 1960's, and know that all is not at peace just yet. When I know another soldier and their families won't suffer, when I know another innocent victim won't be killed then I'll celebrate.
I guess all I'm saying is let us all try not to be quite so judgemental. I didn't see anyone celebrating in the street here in the USA either, but if I did I wouldn't presume to know what motivated them to do so, and I would at the least join them in celebrating the fact that a known terrorist murderer has finally been brought to justice. I agree with you 100% that Osama's killing does very little to stem the tide of terrorism, and that an end to all war, terror, and suffering in the world would REALLY be something to celebrate. We're certainly not there yet, though. If you wait for that to celebrate anything, I fear you'll be waiting a very very long time.
I hate to say this, but he wasn't brought to justice. He was killed in a shootout, but that's not being brought to justice. In fact, according to our legal system, he died an innocent man. He was not convicted of any crimes and we are innocent until proved guilty in a court of law. Since we aren't in the habit of trials for the dead and I think it's pretty much illegal to do so, he wasn't brought to justice, he wasn't even close to justice.
I also don't see anything wrong with being judgmental on this. There really isn't an excuse for it and instead of proving to be better than our enemies, we show how petty and vengeful we can be.
As I listened to the reports of Osama's death, all I could think of was Star Trek. Star Trek has dealt with terrorism and terrorists.
The episodes that come to mind are:
Wolf in the Fold (TOS)
This was the Jack the Ripper type episode where Scotty was accused of murder. This one in particular because of how evil can never be contained in just one being. Even killing or the death of one figurehead will not stop evil from spreading, which is very sad.
The High Ground (TNG)
This one was where Beverly was held hostage and as the leader was taken away, a small child tried to pick up where he left off.
I'm sure that there are many other episodes out there, those are the two that I remember and connect with terrorism and with current events.
Rico, are you planning on covering any episodes or have you covered terrorism like episodes? Just curious
Quote from: X on May 02, 2011, 02:30:21 PM
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on May 02, 2011, 01:51:56 PM
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on May 02, 2011, 09:24:04 AM
I'm 100% sure those (myself included) affected by the London attacks are very pleased the SOB is dead but I don't see celebrations here. We're a country who has been attacked by terrorists since the 1960's, and know that all is not at peace just yet. When I know another soldier and their families won't suffer, when I know another innocent victim won't be killed then I'll celebrate.
I guess all I'm saying is let us all try not to be quite so judgemental. I didn't see anyone celebrating in the street here in the USA either, but if I did I wouldn't presume to know what motivated them to do so, and I would at the least join them in celebrating the fact that a known terrorist murderer has finally been brought to justice. I agree with you 100% that Osama's killing does very little to stem the tide of terrorism, and that an end to all war, terror, and suffering in the world would REALLY be something to celebrate. We're certainly not there yet, though. If you wait for that to celebrate anything, I fear you'll be waiting a very very long time.
I hate to say this, but he wasn't brought to justice. He was killed in a shootout, but that's not being brought to justice. In fact, according to our legal system, he died an innocent man. He was not convicted of any crimes and we are innocent until proved guilty in a court of law. Since we aren't in the habit of trials for the dead and I think it's pretty much illegal to do so, he wasn't brought to justice, he wasn't even close to justice.
I also don't see anything wrong with being judgmental on this. There really isn't an excuse for it and instead of proving to be better than our enemies, we show how petty and vengeful we can be.
So in your opinion, what should we do then? Not go after him? I mean, we don't have phasers to set to stun and it is likely they didn't want to go into a shoot-out, but a shoot-out is what happened. And it isn't like we can just sit on our hands and let him do whatever he feels like either so I'm curious as to what you see is the alternative to what happened.
King
Quote from: Kingisaaclinksr on May 02, 2011, 03:52:06 PM
Quote from: X on May 02, 2011, 02:30:21 PM
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on May 02, 2011, 01:51:56 PM
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on May 02, 2011, 09:24:04 AM
I'm 100% sure those (myself included) affected by the London attacks are very pleased the SOB is dead but I don't see celebrations here. We're a country who has been attacked by terrorists since the 1960's, and know that all is not at peace just yet. When I know another soldier and their families won't suffer, when I know another innocent victim won't be killed then I'll celebrate.
I guess all I'm saying is let us all try not to be quite so judgemental. I didn't see anyone celebrating in the street here in the USA either, but if I did I wouldn't presume to know what motivated them to do so, and I would at the least join them in celebrating the fact that a known terrorist murderer has finally been brought to justice. I agree with you 100% that Osama's killing does very little to stem the tide of terrorism, and that an end to all war, terror, and suffering in the world would REALLY be something to celebrate. We're certainly not there yet, though. If you wait for that to celebrate anything, I fear you'll be waiting a very very long time.
I hate to say this, but he wasn't brought to justice. He was killed in a shootout, but that's not being brought to justice. In fact, according to our legal system, he died an innocent man. He was not convicted of any crimes and we are innocent until proved guilty in a court of law. Since we aren't in the habit of trials for the dead and I think it's pretty much illegal to do so, he wasn't brought to justice, he wasn't even close to justice.
I also don't see anything wrong with being judgmental on this. There really isn't an excuse for it and instead of proving to be better than our enemies, we show how petty and vengeful we can be.
So in your opinion, what should we do then? Not go after him? I mean, we don't have phasers to set to stun and it is likely they didn't want to go into a shoot-out, but a shoot-out is what happened.
King
I didn't say we shouldn't have gone after him. I said it wasn't a reason for celebration and justice, by the definition of our laws, was not served when he died.
In my opinion, we would serve our country better by not training the people we want in power one day and have them use that training against us on the next day. When he was our ally, he was equated to George Washington when he had dinner in the White House with Reagan. I have no fundamental problems with what happened, I just don't think that it's a cause for celebration.
I also wonder what the underlying reasons were to turn an ally to such a hated enemy that hated us in return. We've been dealing with the fallout for the last decade, but have we made efforts to figure out the reason as to how all of this happened? I think the best way to prevent future attacks is to understand the truth behind the hatred.
Ahh ok. I see your point. And its a good one.
King
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on May 02, 2011, 01:16:34 PM
LOL no I'm afraid not Pete, Watson was shot in Maiwand in Aphganistan as i believe Bin Laden was killed in Abbottabad in Pakistan.
Well....at least I got the Jezail bullet part right....
;)
((mental note - don't trust your memory..check your facts...especially when challenging Medz on Holmes-lore))
Quote from: Geekyfanboy on May 02, 2011, 02:18:39 PM
This is all I have to say on the subject...
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Martin Luther King, Jr
That is the perfect quote. Thanks for putting things in perspective Kenny.
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on May 02, 2011, 05:52:25 PM
Quote from: Geekyfanboy on May 02, 2011, 02:18:39 PM
This is all I have to say on the subject...
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Martin Luther King, Jr
That is the perfect quote. Thanks for putting things in perspective Kenny.
it makes sense... oh well, what's done is done.
Quote from: turtlesrock on May 03, 2011, 06:39:18 AM
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on May 02, 2011, 05:52:25 PM
Quote from: Geekyfanboy on May 02, 2011, 02:18:39 PM
This is all I have to say on the subject...
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Martin Luther King, Jr
That is the perfect quote. Thanks for putting things in perspective Kenny.
it makes sense... oh well, what's done is done.
...and the consequences have to be coped with.
It sums up life doesn't it.
Didnt Rambo help them out in Rambo 3??? just asking ;)
Was Rambo three the Afghan one i cannot remember i know four was Cambodia, well i think it was and one was in America.
but on the subject at hand i think Geekboy hit the nail on the head.
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Martin Luther King, Jr
Quote from: Feathers on May 03, 2011, 11:06:13 AM
Quote from: turtlesrock on May 03, 2011, 06:39:18 AM
Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on May 02, 2011, 05:52:25 PM
Quote from: Geekyfanboy on May 02, 2011, 02:18:39 PM
This is all I have to say on the subject...
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Martin Luther King, Jr
That is the perfect quote. Thanks for putting things in perspective Kenny.
it makes sense... oh well, what's done is done.
...and the consequences have to be coped with.
It sums up life doesn't it.
sure does. maybe Q's right. maybe we humans are savages.
but (this keeps coming up, doesn't it?) what's done is done.
i don't know about savages turtle, but we do have a predisposition to destruction, we have between 70-100 thousand years of our species in its present form and what have we developed the most? Weapons, in every era big stronger deadlier. 2000 years ago Romans paid to watch men fight, are we more evolved?. I think not we still pay to watch men fight we just don't call them gladiators. But we do adapt and there are many many good people in the world. Hopefully that will be en ought to save us.
i suppose you're right. though it's still odd, war and peace and all that.
I don't like the celebrations that happened personally. Celebrating anyone's death goes against my beliefs. At the same time I have not problem with the actions take by our govt.. Bin Laden was not a citizen and is not protected by our Constitution. I think brining him in and putting him on trial would be a mess and would put our citizens in a dangerous position.
: :)Hi all to the forum. The death of Osama has dominated the news for the past few days. I heard about it late sunday night when I was returning home from work. I got a call from my mom on my cell phone and she told me the news. I could hardly believe it that we finally found him and took care of business. I have been following the story on and off the past few days. The thing I found the most intersteding is the fact he had been hiding out in Pakistan in an area controlled by the government. He must have inside help there. ??? Well the world is now a better place now that he is gone for good. :)
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 04:05:28 AM
Bin Laden was not a citizen and is not protected by our Constitution.
Do you realise how frightening that is to the rest of us who aren't citizens and so aren't protected by your constitution?!
Quote from: Feathers on May 05, 2011, 12:32:46 PM
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 04:05:28 AM
Bin Laden was not a citizen and is not protected by our Constitution.
Do you realise how frightening that is to the rest of us who aren't citizens and so aren't protected by your constitution?!
I hope you're planning on going on any cruises, you may find yourself 'buried at sea' :)
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 04:05:28 AM
I don't like the celebrations that happened personally. Celebrating anyone's death goes against my beliefs. At the same time I have not problem with the actions take by our govt.. Bin Laden was not a citizen and is not protected by our Constitution. I think brining him in and putting him on trial would be a mess and would put our citizens in a dangerous position.
Well, I'm glad that you don't have a law degree. Even non-citizens are protected by the constitution. That's something that was supposed to be taught in junior high.
Also, there are laws that prevent us from assassinating people, which is why they could only kill him if he posed a clear and present danger.
Do me a favor and don't comment on the constitution if you don't know what you're talking about. It really makes us look bad when things like that hit the web with no support. It probably looks worse for the person saying it when they have to be corrected.
Quote from: billybob476 on May 05, 2011, 12:34:54 PM
Quote from: Feathers on May 05, 2011, 12:32:46 PM
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 04:05:28 AM
Bin Laden was not a citizen and is not protected by our Constitution.
Do you realise how frightening that is to the rest of us who aren't citizens and so aren't protected by your constitution?!
I hope you're planning on going on any cruises, you may find yourself 'buried at sea' :)
Is assassination an optional extra on cruises too now? Hmmm. I need to decide who to buy some tickets for! ;)
Quote from: Feathers on May 05, 2011, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: billybob476 on May 05, 2011, 12:34:54 PM
Quote from: Feathers on May 05, 2011, 12:32:46 PM
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 04:05:28 AM
Bin Laden was not a citizen and is not protected by our Constitution.
Do you realise how frightening that is to the rest of us who aren't citizens and so aren't protected by your constitution?!
I hope you're planning on going on any cruises, you may find yourself 'buried at sea' :)
Is assassination an optional extra on cruises too now? Hmmm. I need to decide who to buy some tickets for! ;)
It's an unexpected option :)
I've always been under the impression that assassination implied you were a public figure. Otherwise it'd just be murder.
Think i'll go to Canada instead ;)
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on May 05, 2011, 01:19:21 PM
Think i'll go to Canada instead ;)
We kill you with kindness.
Quote from: Bryancd on May 05, 2011, 01:29:19 PM
Quote from: billybob476 on May 05, 2011, 01:24:59 PM
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on May 05, 2011, 01:19:21 PM
Think i'll go to Canada instead ;)
We kill you with kindness.
...and Molsons... :)
Why do you think we're so kind? Then again I do know some belligerent drunks...
Quote from: billybob476 on May 05, 2011, 01:10:36 PM
Quote from: Feathers on May 05, 2011, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: billybob476 on May 05, 2011, 12:34:54 PM
Quote from: Feathers on May 05, 2011, 12:32:46 PM
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 04:05:28 AM
Bin Laden was not a citizen and is not protected by our Constitution.
Do you realise how frightening that is to the rest of us who aren't citizens and so aren't protected by your constitution?!
I hope you're planning on going on any cruises, you may find yourself 'buried at sea' :)
Is assassination an optional extra on cruises too now? Hmmm. I need to decide who to buy some tickets for! ;)
It's an unexpected option :)
I've always been under the impression that assassination implied you were a public figure. Otherwise it'd just be murder.
Surely that distinction would be up to the legal authority of the territory where the cruise ship was when I was killed?
(In Britain, we'd kill you using volunteers since we can't afford to pay people in public service any more.)
What? I don't merit the SAS? Bin Laden got Seal Team 6!
Quote from: billybob476 on May 05, 2011, 01:56:22 PM
What? I don't merit the SAS? Bin Laden got Seal Team 6!
Sorry, got to protect the public purse. Can't afford the bullets. You know how it is with a Tory government. ;)
Quote from: X on May 05, 2011, 12:46:35 PM
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 04:05:28 AM
I don't like the celebrations that happened
psonally. Celebrating anyone's death goes against my beliefs. At the same time I have not problem with the actions take by our govt.. Bin Laden was not a citizen and is not protected by our Constitution. I think brining him in and putting him on trial would be a mess and would put our citizens in a dangerous position.
Well, I'm glad that you don't have a law degree. Even non-citizens are protected by the constitution. That's something that was supposed to be taught in junior high.
Also, there are laws that prevent us from assassinating people, which is why they could only kill him if he posed a clear and present danger.
Do me a favor and don't comment on the constitution if you don't know what you're talking about. It really makes us look bad when things like that hit the web with no support. It probably looks worse for the person saying it when they have to be corrected.
First off I have respect for others even if they are on message boards. I will not address you the way you address me. The international community wants the US citizens to show respect so it starts at home.
All I ask is that even though this is a message board and people seem to like to talk "big", that they treat each other with respect. Everyone makes mistakes! This is a forum where people discuss and your was not a discussion it was something else.
BTW I did go to an inner-city school where we carried guns to school and worried about living not about the exact points of the Constitution. I am proud of going to College and changing my life. Clearly we come from different areas......
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 02:42:38 PM
Quote from: X on May 05, 2011, 12:46:35 PM
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 04:05:28 AM
I don't like the celebrations that happened
psonally. Celebrating anyone's death goes against my beliefs. At the same time I have not problem with the actions take by our govt.. Bin Laden was not a citizen and is not protected by our Constitution. I think brining him in and putting him on trial would be a mess and would put our citizens in a dangerous position.
Well, I'm glad that you don't have a law degree. Even non-citizens are protected by the constitution. That's something that was supposed to be taught in junior high.
Also, there are laws that prevent us from assassinating people, which is why they could only kill him if he posed a clear and present danger.
Do me a favor and don't comment on the constitution if you don't know what you're talking about. It really makes us look bad when things like that hit the web with no support. It probably looks worse for the person saying it when they have to be corrected.
First off I have respect for others even if they are on message boards. I will not address you the way you address me. The international community wants the US citizens to show respect so it starts at home.
All I ask is that even though this is a message board and people seem to like to talk "big", that they treat each other with respect. Everyone makes mistakes! This is a forum where people discuss and your was not a discussion it was something else.
BTW I did go to an inner-city school where we carried guns to school and worried about living not about the exact points of the Constitution. I am proud of going to College and changing my life. Clearly we come from different areas......
Look, I wasn't trying to make you feel attacked, but when you make comments about a legal system that, as someone living in it, we should know something about, it should be backed up with facts. I think that's one of my journalism pet peeves that's a hold over from school.
We actually don't come from that different a place, but that's not the point. As the saying goes: "Ignorance is not an excuse.". My asking you not to comment if you didn't know wasn't me being cynical, it was me trying to ask you to be aware of what you're saying. Like it or not, true or not, people outside of our country actually expect us to know a little about our country. When we make these comments, they actually come off as believable because people not here assume that we should know what we're talking about because we're actually living here.
As for mine not being a discussion, I believe that it was. You made a statement that was wrong either through intention or ignorance and people not from here assumed that you knew what you were talking about. Perhaps I could have said it a little nicer, but I'm really sick of having to explain to people outside of the country that we're not the war loving cowboys that tend to ignore the rule of law.
I also highly respect and agree with your views on not celebrating the death of Bin Laden. I wasn't trying to pick on you, but I guess I had hit my limit on politely trying to repair the damage that others do to the outside view of our country.
What you said amounted to "If you're not a US citizen, we can kill you with no problem, we can beat you, torture, and rape you too because you have no rights here or anywhere near us, even when we're in your country."
I have a fundamental problem with that image of us being spread.
Sorry if I was too harsh in my reply.
Quote from: X on May 05, 2011, 04:10:39 PM
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 02:42:38 PM
Quote from: X on May 05, 2011, 12:46:35 PM
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 04:05:28 AM
I don't like the celebrations that happened
psonally. Celebrating anyone's death goes against my beliefs. At the same time I have not problem with the actions take by our govt.. Bin Laden was not a citizen and is not protected by our Constitution. I think brining him in and putting him on trial would be a mess and would put our citizens in a dangerous position.
Well, I'm glad that you don't have a law degree. Even non-citizens are protected by the constitution. That's something that was supposed to be taught in junior high.
Also, there are laws that prevent us from assassinating people, which is why they could only kill him if he posed a clear and present danger.
Do me a favor and don't comment on the constitution if you don't know what you're talking about. It really makes us look bad when things like that hit the web with no support. It probably looks worse for the person saying it when they have to be corrected.
First off I have respect for others even if they are on message boards. I will not address you the way you address me. The international community wants the US citizens to show respect so it starts at home.
All I ask is that even though this is a message board and people seem to like to talk "big", that they treat each other with respect. Everyone makes mistakes! This is a forum where people discuss and your was not a discussion it was something else.
BTW I did go to an inner-city school where we carried guns to school and worried about living not about the exact points of the Constitution. I am proud of going to College and changing my life. Clearly we come from different areas......
Look, I wasn't trying to make you feel attacked, but when you make comments about a legal system that, as someone living in it, we should know something about, it should be backed up with facts. I think that's one of my journalism pet peeves that's a hold over from school.
We actually don't come from that different a place, but that's not the point. As the saying goes: "Ignorance is not an excuse.". My asking you not to comment if you didn't know wasn't me being cynical, it was me trying to ask you to be aware of what you're saying. Like it or not, true or not, people outside of our country actually expect us to know a little about our country. When we make these comments, they actually come off as believable because people not here assume that we should know what we're talking about because we're actually living here.
As for mine not being a discussion, I believe that it was. You made a statement that was wrong either through intention or ignorance and people not from here assumed that you knew what you were talking about. Perhaps I could have said it a little nicer, but I'm really sick of having to explain to people outside of the country that we're not the war loving cowboys that tend to ignore the rule of law.
I also highly respect and agree with your views on not celebrating the death of Bin Laden. I wasn't trying to pick on you, but I guess I had hit my limit on politely trying to repair the damage that others do to the outside view of our country.
What you said amounted to "If you're not a US citizen, we can kill you with no problem, we can beat you, torture, and rape you too because you have no rights here or anywhere near us, even when we're in your country."
I have a fundamental problem with that image of us being spread.
Sorry if I was too harsh in my reply.
Thanks for the reply x. I respect someone that can reply to me the way you did and apologize. Takes a big person to do that.
Chris hates everyone outside of the US. ;) Runs away quickly ;)
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on May 05, 2011, 04:18:53 PM
Chris hates everyone outside of the US. ;) Runs away quickly ;)
Which one? both of us are chrises.
LOL well that boosted the joke ;)
Back to the main topic, I'm a little bit shocked now at the sudden different stpries of events. We go from a shoot out with his wife being used as a shield to no shoot out and his wife being shot in the leg. That doesnt look good, PR should be shot (wrong phrase PR should be sacked) for that blunder. The photo shown on the news (sky) was a fake (another case of shitty journalism).
The main question now is Pakistans security issues. I'm not going to say they knew he was there (though it seems likely someone knew). Also the UK has gone on high security alert, our chief police constable has issed a statement saying a it is likely we will see some sort of attack in reprisal. This does not suprise me, in fact i expected it which is why i said in the earlier part of this thread i will not celebrate when i know more innocent people will die because of this.
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 02:42:38 PM
All I ask is that even though this is a message board and people seem to like to talk "big", that they treat each other with respect.
Actually, it has been proven that I am a complete bastard. There apparently was a study done. Carry on...
Honestly, I think the criticism being levied against the Administration and Obama regarding the killing of Obama are unfair. George Bush declared war against Al Queda, this was an act of war as per that US doctrine. The operation was appropriate. How we feel about it is up for friendly debate.
Quote from: Bryancd on May 05, 2011, 05:05:56 PM
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 02:42:38 PM
All I ask is that even though this is a message board and people seem to like to talk "big", that they treat each other with respect.
Actually, it has been proven that I am a complete bastard. There apparently was a study done. Carry on...
Really? Dang. *starts stepping away from Bryan*
King
Quote from: Bryancd on May 05, 2011, 05:05:56 PM
Quote from: Blackride on May 05, 2011, 02:42:38 PM
All I ask is that even though this is a message board and people seem to like to talk "big", that they treat each other with respect.
Actually, it has been proven that I am a complete bastard. There apparently was a study done. Carry on...
I think I had that same study done on me ... my mother described me as a heartless bastard, but said it was a compliment.
Quote from: Bryancd on May 05, 2011, 05:39:27 PM
Honestly, I think the criticism being levied against the Administration and Obama regarding the killing of Obama are unfair. George Bush declared war against Al Queda, this was an act of war as per that US doctrine. The operation was appropriate. How we feel about it is up for friendly debate.
Can you legally declare war on something other than a nation state? How does that work? If it doesn't then all you can do is extradite a criminal for a crime for trial and conviction. (I understand the rhetoric of the 'war on terror' but that is surely very different from an actual, 'legal' shooting war).
The other potential issue is that you haven't declared war on Pakistan (yet). I think we're all lucky that the Pakistani's didn't shoot down one of the helicopters invading their airspace.
@Bryan, @Chris I'd say you're both rather charming bastards ;)
I am fascinated by the helicopters used by the SEAL teams. There was a program for a stealth chopper that was canceled some time ago - I guess that it was somehow kept alive. Makes me wonder what other tech goodies are out there that we don't know about.
Quote from: Bromptonboy on May 06, 2011, 02:39:48 AM
I am fascinated by the helicopters used by the SEAL teams. There was a program for a stealth chopper that was canceled some time ago - I guess that it was somehow kept alive. Makes me wonder what other tech goodies are out there that we don't know about.
Really? Which one was that? I didn't think there were any plans for stealth transport helicopters.
Quote from: Feathers on May 05, 2011, 12:32:46 PM
Do you realise how frightening that is to the rest of us who aren't citizens and so aren't protected by your constitution?!
Don't fund and train terrorists or plan and execute attacks on our citizens and you should be fine. ;)
Quote from: Feathers on May 06, 2011, 03:28:51 AM
Quote from: Bromptonboy on May 06, 2011, 02:39:48 AM
I am fascinated by the helicopters used by the SEAL teams. There was a program for a stealth chopper that was canceled some time ago - I guess that it was somehow kept alive. Makes me wonder what other tech goodies are out there that we don't know about.
Really? Which one was that? I didn't think there were any plans for stealth transport helicopters.
Yep, these were versions of the Blackhawk with body panels designed to provide a smaller radar signature as well as a very quiet engine system. They came in low and fast and I will put our boy's in our flying machines up against the Pakistani's any day of the week.
Quote from: Bryancd on May 06, 2011, 06:58:39 AM
Quote from: Feathers on May 06, 2011, 03:28:51 AM
Quote from: Bromptonboy on May 06, 2011, 02:39:48 AM
I am fascinated by the helicopters used by the SEAL teams. There was a program for a stealth chopper that was canceled some time ago - I guess that it was somehow kept alive. Makes me wonder what other tech goodies are out there that we don't know about.
Really? Which one was that? I didn't think there were any plans for stealth transport helicopters.
Yep, these were versions of the Blackhawk with body panels designed to provide a smaller radar signature as well as a very quiet engine system. They came in low and fast and I will put our boy's in our flying machines up against the Pakistani's any day of the week.
And I think they had Stringfellow Hawk as their pilot! :)
Al, you know they make the Apache out at the Boeing facility in Mesa at Falcon Field. I see them flying all over the desert out this way doing training/testing. Sometimes I swear they are hovering and painting me on my bike with their radar for target practice!
"Sic Semper Tyrant"
Quote from: Bryancd on May 06, 2011, 07:42:59 AM
Al, you know they make the Apache out at the Boeing facility in Mesa at Falcon Field. I see them flying all over the desert out this way doing training/testing. Sometimes I swear they are hovering and painting me on my bike with their radar for target practice!
:) Yeah, when Joyce and I go up North (Heber/Overgaard) for the weekend, we pass through Fountain Hills and sometimes see the Apaches. Too cool! And now that I think about it...I DO remember seeing once, an couple of Apaches aiming a tracking laser at a bicyclist...guy had short hair, and NO SHIRT ON! :)
Quote from: Feathers on May 06, 2011, 03:28:51 AM
Quote from: Bromptonboy on May 06, 2011, 02:39:48 AM
I am fascinated by the helicopters used by the SEAL teams. There was a program for a stealth chopper that was canceled some time ago - I guess that it was somehow kept alive. Makes me wonder what other tech goodies are out there that we don't know about.
Really? Which one was that? I didn't think there were any plans for stealth transport helicopters.
The Boeing/Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing/Sikorsky_RAH-66_Comanche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing/Sikorsky_RAH-66_Comanche)
Although this is not a transport - it looks like lessons learned were added on to existing platforms.
Yeah, the Comanche was what I was thinking about. I saw one at an air show here once (static display). It makes sense to take the technology and build it in where possible elsewhere, I just hadn't heard about it (and helicopters is supposed to be my business).
For what it's worth, we build Apaches down in Somerset. I've been on the test rig at the factory for a mini conference once.
The only time I've flown on a military aircraft we were doing pretend torpedo attacks on the merchant shipping round te Isle of Wight. Chances are good that they were targeting you, Bryan.
I have no doubt, Mike! The terrain over here is very Middle East looking and I'm moving like a crafty insurgent across the land! :)
Quote from: Bryancd on May 06, 2011, 10:07:04 AM
I have no doubt, Mike! The terrain over here is very Middle East looking and I'm moving like a crafty insurgent across the land! :)
So true, and in fact, the movie The Kingdom that was out last year or maybe 2009, was filmed here in Arizona (Phoenix, Chandler, Mesa) because it looks so Middle-Eastern.
Not surprised that you didn't hear about this Mike - it seems these modified models took everyone by surprise. I am just a buff, not in the industry like you are, and I hadn't read anything. Makes me wonder what other goodies are hidden in the inventory. I read about rumors of a craft that has no control surfaces, but only uses vectored thrust for all of it's movement - and it can hover and fly at incredible speeds.
Quote from: QuadShot on May 06, 2011, 10:29:30 AM
Quote from: Bryancd on May 06, 2011, 10:07:04 AM
I have no doubt, Mike! The terrain over here is very Middle East looking and I'm moving like a crafty insurgent across the land! :)
So true, and in fact, the movie The Kingdom that was out last year or maybe 2009, was filmed here in Arizona (Phoenix, Chandler, Mesa) because it looks so Middle-Eastern.
Jamie was an extra in a restaurantr scene in that movie! We wnet to see it in theaters when it came out but didn't see her int he scene. We walked out after that, the movie was crap.
Osama killed by rogue Bajorans?
http://www.avclub.com/articles/german-tv-reveals-that-osama-bin-laden-was-killed,55968/ (http://www.avclub.com/articles/german-tv-reveals-that-osama-bin-laden-was-killed,55968/)
(http://media.avclub.com/images/articles/article/55968/star-trek-seals-550x343_jpg_627x325_crop_upscale_q85.jpg)
by Sean O'Neal May 12, 2011 In addition to all those congratulatory beers that are just going to waste, here's one of the other major drawbacks to not publicly revealing the identities of "Team Six," the elite Navy SEAL group that brought down Bin Laden: It leaves the door wide open for just about anyone to come and take credit, even a bunch of anti-Cardassian terrorists from the 24th century. And that's exactly what happened on Germany's N24 TV network, which accidentally pulled a fan-created logo for the "Maquis Special Operations" group from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, then presented it as the SEAL Team Six logo, complete with analysis, noting, "They don't have the skull in their emblem for nothing."
Indeed, although the skull in question clearly (harrumph!) belongs to a Klingon, boasts a bolted-on eyepatch, and comes surrounded by bat'leths—weapons that, so far as we know, are not typically encountered in normal Navy SEAL operations. Most likely they've also yet to progress to using phasers, like the giant one featured in the emblem. What's more, the German newscasters also didn't seem to blink at the idea that a U.S. special ops team had seemingly borrowed its name from their old French Resistance enemies. Clearly, this is the worst thing the Germans have ever done. [Fox News via Gawker]