Short of a nuclear war and warp drive technology, what would it take for ordinary people like me and you to make the Star Trek future a reality here on this Earth?
We all found Treks in Sci-Fi, because Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future spoke to us (and Rico publishes one hell of a podcast).
I just see too many differences in the world, and too many people refuse to compromise their principles for the greater good of humanity. Too many political systems are corrupt, and too many people are suffering under the crushing weight of those systems. This is the world that we live in. How do we change it?
I think it would take us finding planets with friendly aliens who wanted to join efforts for trade, defence, and science.
I don't think that would completely do it. You would have religious nuts, and crazy people coming out of the woodwork sending people into a panic.
And the government would try to blow them off as weather balloons.
I agree.. the human race is not ready to meet Aliens. We as humans would shoot first then ask questions.
There are too many difference in the world. Religion alone separates us. If we either joined under one religion (which would never happen) or get rid of it all together (again won't happen) there will always be difference and conflict.
What a cheery subject. :D
As long as we remain pessimistic and "doom and gloomish" then no, it won't ever happen because we've abandoned all hope. If we don't have hope for a better world, and make an effort to make that world better, then what's the point of dreaming? What's the point of anything? I think Gene would be disappointed that people have been inspired by the technology in his universe, but his ideas regarding world peace are considered unattainable...too hard to achieve. Why shouldn't we endeavour to achieve that ideal as well? Why give up simply because it's never been done?
*edit*
In Gene Roddenberry's universe the Federation goes beyond the orbit of Earth... It encompasses many worlds who hold to many different philosophies. For the most part they live together peaceably within the Federation. The ones that make war are the worlds who live outside that circle. I think it's possible to achieve this while maintaining diversity... we don't need to drop religion. We need to learn and embrace the concept of brotherly love. Lots of people prescribe to that mantra but they don't always practice it.
I believe the world will change one day. I have to, because hope is an important part of who I am and what makes me get up in the morning and meet the day.
There have been more wars fought over religion then anything else, I don't think it is possible at the moment especially with our reliance on fossil fuels, and an economy based on a monetary system, as there will always be countries that have more wealth then others and that alone continues to breed jealousy and suspicion,
I think in order for this to happen our present world economy would have to colapse and a new type of energy source which is cheap and plentiful would have to be found.
Well first things first we would have to find some aliens. And are there any?
I saw the creationist video "The Case for a Creator" and they discussed the possiblity of alien life. Not something we ever talked about in sunday school! They interviewed an astro biolegest, which is a field of study I didn't even know we have today, and felt it was interesting. He discusses the factors nessessery for life and tries to calcute how many planets there could be with life on them.
Now this is a creationist video so it does have a possition from the begining.
Here is a clip of it. The astrobioligst is about 3 minutes in. I'm sure that we have people on the forums on all sides of the debates but I found things in the video to be quite informative. Even if you don't agree it really makes the viewer think. I think many scifi fans will enjoy it. Even who don't agree. I think some of those guys should write scifi stories.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=z2KpQ0lI_Xg
I think the whole premise of first finding aliens is wrong. It's not as if they will solve humanity's problems. We need to fix our problems ourselves. Most planets don't join the Federation unless they have their house in order.
I agree with Iceman that one of the first things we need find is a new source of energy. I concluded about 10 years ago that that particular source of energy is nuclear fusion. The last article I read on that technology stated that we might expect a decent reactor in about 50 years or so. I don't think the world economy needs to completely collapse though. With nuclear fusion, we'll have virtually a limitless amount of energy.
Then we'll have to worry about dealing with bringing the developing nations up to better living standards. Once living standards go up, the rate of increase in population decreases. So eventually, the human population on planet Earth will reach a plateau.
With the whole world on the same page (economically) more or less, we then need to continue to work at getting along with each other. We can do that through many different ways including launching major collaborative projects such as: mission to Titan, Uranus, the Oort Cloud, Alpha Centauri. . .
I know, it sounds kinda simplistic and maybe not too well thought out but that's the idea.
When a subject comes up like this I always think of the exchange between Edith Keeler and Kirk in "City on the Edge of Forever." It goes something like this....
"In the future they will take all the money that's spent on war and fighting and start spending it on life."
A simple concept that will take a lot to achieve.
For me the "key" to creating the Federation is acceptance. Not just the PC pretend to be accepting but you really aren't acceptance, but actual acceptance. Start with religion and go from there. Sure everyone that has a faith thinking that their faith is the right one, but the moment that they start accepting that not everyone agrees with them and that it's actually okay to disagree, there will be problems. Once religion stops trying to convince everyoen else that they have the true path and faith returns to being about an individual and their personal beliefs, then we can take a first step.
After the faith thing is cleared up, we need to eliminate borders and nationalism. As we move deeper into the 21st century we as people of the internet realize that Earth is a lot smaller and more connected than other generations thought. Food shouldn't be spoiling in one place while another starves for lack of it. When individuals start acting for the good of humanity and not just their part of the world we take another step.
Now here is the easy solution. Teach your children true tolerance and that they should be looking beyond their home and beyond their country to see how they can help with the world. Teach them that their faith is theri choice and absolutly nothing bad will happen to them if someone has a different faith. The universe is large enough to were all beliefs can be respected.
Have your children pass these ideas to theri children and those simple steps become a brighter path to the future. Energy problems will be solved because great mind will be working in cooperation and not competition. Hunger will be solved because it will no longer be someone else's problem.
Utopia begins with parents teach there children to be better aware of the world, more willing to help people that they don't know, and to be more tolerant than the generation before them.
I am a Baptist. And personally, I believe everyone has the right to believe what they want to. If they want to believe that the moon is made of cheese. they have as much a right to believe that as I do to believe what I believe.
I don't think religion is the problem. I have noticed that people have no shortage of things to go crazy over, if not religion, then politics, sports, money, and plenty of other things. Some people get the idea in their head that everyone should be in compleate agreement with them. I think it's something about human nature to seek confrontation with people.
I agree space_invader.
Quote from: space_invader64 on November 29, 2007, 03:28:52 PM
I am a Baptist. And personally, I believe everyone has the right to believe what they want to. If they want to believe that the moon is made of cheese. they have as much a right to believe that as I do to believe what I believe.
I don't think religion is the problem. I have noticed that people have no shortage of things to go crazy over, if not religion, then politics, sports, money, and plenty of other things. Some people get the idea in their head that everyone should be in compleate agreement with them. I think it's something about human nature to seek confrontation with people.
I also agree with space_invader and Jen. Achieving religious harmony first will not bring about a utopia. There are many other issues that bring about conflict in the world.
Just X, your idea is easy but I'm not sure that it's very practical--at least not in the short run. In the long run I can see it happening. However, how do you change the intolerant ways of entire families and populations? How can we change the point of view of the head of an intolerant household? clan? country?
Frankly, I'm not holding my breath that we will change our ways any time soon. While change does start with each individual, we have a long way to go before we all get along.
There have been wars fought over religion. Today, I wouldn't be supprised if a war were to be fought over the result of a soccer game. Some of those fans look ready to go to war after a loss.
You guys are all bringing up some very good points. ;D
It seems to me that the biggest source of most of society's current problems is a our divisiveness. People seem cursed with the inability to see that we are all actually more alike than different. I believe that the discovery that we are not alone in the universe would go a long way towards uniting humanity- it would definitely help us put our differences into perspective.
Of course, such a discovery would bring about its own contentious issues, but overall, I think it would be good for us.
I am a non-sports fan in Oklahoma. It's like being an athiest in Oklahoma. I often joke that college football is the state religion.
Quote from: space_invader64 on November 30, 2007, 05:18:12 PM
I am a non-sports fan in Oklahoma. It's like being an athiest in Oklahoma. I often joke that college football is the state religion.
Same here in Texas (Sooners and Longhorns are big rivals as I'm sure you know Space_Invader) .
I don't know any man in my family who hasn't played high school football. Luckily I married one who doesn't eat, sleep and dream sports.
Ahh, but you need to consider what about us as a species MAKES is inclined towards confrontation? Is it confrontation simply for the sake of an argument or fight or is it something more? I would posit that we are violent by nature. We can nurture and attempt to intellectualize that out of us, but it will take a lot longer than a couple of hundred years until stardate whatever to do it, to our misfortune. Violence is what kept us alive for millions of years and that innate part of us can't be dismissed just because we have come to control all we survey. That's our problem, we were never meant to be IN control of anything, we just happen to end up at the top of the food chain. Lucky us!
No, for mankind to truly be what G.R. envisioned, we need to see beyond ourselves in a profound way. Aliens aren't a bad idea, we may shoot first, but we would do it as a species for once in our evolution. Global destruction could be another, but we would be quick to fall into anarchy and survival mode. I don't know, may be a tough bill to fill.
Ultimately, we need to consider these issues with an honest appraisal of who we REALLY are. Religion, politics, money, sports are just affects of what dwells beneath.
In the course of my life, I have been a member of no less than 12 different faiths/belief systems. I did it not because I was confused about what I wanted, but because I was sure that I wouldn't know what I wanted unless I became a part of that faith to see what was going on with it. I needed to see where my views agreed with theirs and where they were not in agreement.
I practiced the faiths of the Torah, the Gospels, and the Koran. I also studied several branches of Wicca and tried Budhism.
In the end, I learned that as much as these faiths are alike, it is the differences that people fight over. Rather than accept the little differences, too many people push them as divides that can't be crossed.
While religion isn't evil, there has been a lot of evil done in the name of religion. All of this because of small differences that rational people should have been able to accept or ignore. From my own experiences, I see people that would rather assume things about another faith with no proof rather than do the work to learn about that other faith.
Sure religious tolerance won't create Utopia, but I can assure you that by doing the things that it takes to reach that tolerance (i.e. taking the time to learn about things outside of your comfort zone) it will give us the tools to create Utopia. As soon as people begin to see that their religion won't implode because someone has a different view, that agression can be channeled into progress toward a better society.
I think that it would also help in reminding people that what happen in another person's bedroom is none of their business.
When humans start to accept that it's okay for others to be different from them and they won't die because people have a different lifestyle, faith, race, or nationality, then we can progress to something better than yesterday and reach for a better tomorrow.
Jen, I think it is just nuts that the football rivalry caused us to have to change our spring break to a diffrent week as yours to prevent us from fighting.
I went out for basketball in high school but just wasn't any good at it. I compeated in quiz bowl. It was fun. I went to college ECU in Ada Oklahoma. I only went to ball games if I was filming.
People get so frustrated at my lack of intrest in who wins or loses a ball game. I'm only interested if I know people playing the game. if not, I don't see any reason to care. People think I need to care if OU wins or losses every Saturday. I never went to that school, don't know anyone there, and personally I have some thoughts on this. I know this is blasphemy in the state of Oklahoma but I don't agree with athletic scholarships. To me, it's paying people to play a game. I made better grades than the ball players, why do they get so much more money than me? Because the point of college to most people in our area is to have a better team than the other schools. That way we can score points that don't really mean anything more than our rivals. That way, we can entertain fans who buy the school's merch so we can have more money. Does that mean that money will be used to lower the tuition for the non athletes? Of coarse not! Doesn't work that way. Tution goes up if your team is the national champions!
I'm sure if aliens are watching they are going to mistake our sports fandom for a religion. Think about it. They dress alike, congregate in large stadiums and chant.
With all due respect, I don't need to practice any other faith to accept people for who they are, and I know many people who are the same way I am. Not all faithful people are religious zealots and extremists who want to turn their back on you, or wipe you off the face of the Earth because you don't believe in who or what they do. As you said, there has been a lot of evil done in the name of religion... It only takes a few bad seeds to give us faithful folks a bad name. Religion has given those types of people (extremists and zealots), throughout history, a chance at power... and they are twisted by power... and that's another thing that people fight over. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Back to the topic of the Federation. I believe the main point they constantly make in Star Trek is that the Federation came about when Earth gave up violence. I don't think that just pertains to nations and religious groups... I think that means Mr. Joe Blow, who may like your tennis shoes, doesn't try to shoot you to steal them in the future. It means Mr. Smith doesn't beat Mrs. Smith because she didn't make his dinner fast enough. And Mrs. Smith doesn't lock her kids in a cage in their bed room closet when their "bad". It means no one sleeps on the street at night... and people have equal access to education, medicine and jobs.
I hear you. I never went to a single football game at Texas State. That astonishes my fellow alumni here at work. They can't believe I don't even know the alma matter. I know my high school alma matter...went to all those games. But I went to college to learn stuff. Football is great... but I don't have dreams about it. My brother was a Corner Back and a tight end in high school. He also played special teams on kick off return. He loved "hitting" guys at full speed. He has a great throwing arm and used to tell his friends, when they asked who taught him to throw, that his big sister did. If the ball is small enough, I can still throw a perfect spiral and hit him in the numbers. Oh... the Dallas Cowboys are kicking butt apparently. Woot? :D
Quote from: space_invader64 on November 30, 2007, 08:35:01 PM
Jen, I think it is just nuts that the football rivalry caused us to have to change our spring break to a diffrent week as yours to prevent us from fighting.
I went out for basketball in high school but just wasn't any good at it. I compeated in quiz bowl. It was fun. I went to college ECU in Ada Oklahoma. I only went to ball games if I was filming.
People get so frustrated at my lack of intrest in who wins or loses a ball game. I'm only interested if I know people playing the game. if not, I don't see any reason to care. People think I need to care if OU wins or losses every Saturday. I never went to that school, don't know anyone there, and personally I have some thoughts on this. I know this is blasphemy in the state of Oklahoma but I don't agree with athletic scholarships. To me, it's paying people to play a game. I made better grades than the ball players, why do they get so much more money than me? Because the point of college to most people in our area is to have a better team than the other schools. That way we can score points that don't really mean anything more than our rivals. That way, we can entertain fans who buy the school's merch so we can have more money. Does that mean that money will be used to lower the tuition for the non athletes? Of coarse not! Doesn't work that way. Tution goes up if your team is the national champions!
I'm sure if aliens are watching they are going to mistake our sports fandom for a religion. Think about it. They dress alike, congregate in large stadiums and chant.
Quote from: space_invader64 on November 30, 2007, 08:35:01 PM
I know this is blasphemy in the state of Oklahoma but I don't agree with athletic scholarships. To me, it's paying people to play a game. I made better grades than the ball players, why do they get so much more money than me? Because the point of college to most people in our area is to have a better team than the other schools. That way we can score points that don't really mean anything more than our rivals. That way, we can entertain fans who buy the school's merch so we can have more money. Does that mean that money will be used to lower the tuition for the non athletes? Of coarse not! Doesn't work that way. Tution goes up if your team is the national champions!
I'm sure if aliens are watching they are going to mistake our sports fandom for a religion. Think about it. They dress alike, congregate in large stadiums and chant.
Honestly I can answer some of this as my father is one of the deans working up here at a college in Ohio. Sports bring in ton of money for the university. Witout them your tuition would most likely be out of control due to the lack of money coming from other areas. Kids get the scholarships because people pay to see them. Nobody paid to watch me debate Union vs. Non-Union case studies in class :)
There are so many factors in why your tuition goes up it's not even funny. State funding itself changes by the quarter and during the last few years it has been constantly cut, hence the reason for rising tuitions at almost all state funded universities.
I am not trying to argue with you. I am just trying to give you some insight as I asked these same questions a long time ago when I was a freshman.
Back to the main topic....
I think that the very heart of what humans are make them different. Religion is always the easiest for people to point at but I would contend that they actually pull people together and guide them down a better understanding of their humanity. Yes, you can point to bad things brought in by religion ( 1095 Pope Urban II ), but that is not the main reason in my opinion to blame them for people being seperated.
I personally love watching Star Trek but do not really like the Federation from the conceptual level. Utopia's are easy to explain on TV but actually getting to one I do not think will happen. There are simply too many people in the world that want to be different and go their own way. To achieve a utopia you would have to come up with a perfect form of goverment and society where everyone wants to be part of it , which I think is near impossible.
Just my thoughts...
Is the federation a true utopia? I personally like diversity and I think that would be lost in a utopian society. I think of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World when I hear that word. In his novel "humanity is carefree, healthy and technologically advanced. Warfare and poverty have been eliminated and everyone is permanently happy due to government-provided stimulation. The irony is that all of these things have been achieved by eliminating many things that humans consider to be central to their identity — family, culture, art, literature, science, religion, and philosophy."
In the Federation, on Earth, people still have their identity, family, culture, art literature and science (only aliens seem to be religious). I'm not sure that cultures would be distinct anymore if borders were gone. And when I say borders, I'm specifically referring to areas, not necessarily the line in the sand that people can't cross at will. So it always seemed strange that some of the Terran characters were so immersed in their distinct cultures. I loved that aspect of Star Trek... I think it adds to the show and the message that people can live in harmony in the future, but I wonder if cultural distinction would be eliminated in a real life Federation? Accents would be lost, unique cultures would be lost or blended until unrecognizable. Not that any of that is undesirable, but I like the diversity, it makes people interesting.
So, while I still hope that we one day we can achieve many of the things the Federation has obtained... I don't want to sacrifice diversity for it. If we could keep that aspect and somehow achieve the rest of what is appealing and desirable in the Star Trek Universe, I would be cool with that.
Again, the federation is a wonderful dream... yeah, ok, it doesn't look like a goal we can realize right now or in the time frame the Star Trek writers imagined, but it won't hurt anyone to aspire to it.
Quote from: space_invader64 on November 30, 2007, 08:35:01 PM
Jen, I think it is just nuts that the football rivalry caused us to have to change our spring break to a diffrent week as yours to prevent us from fighting.
You know ... I don't bring this up much because of the athletic situation, but I grew up between Edmond Oklahoma and Houston Texas. I traveled between the two rotating every two years or so until adulthood.
There is nothing like the Oklahoma/Texas rivalry. I think it's because Oklahoma is the one state that remembers that they were just a piece of Texas that was trimmed off when she joined the Union. The other states forget that some times and Oklahoma just wants to prove they they aren't in Texas' shadow.
Native Oklahoma .... I miss my Driver's license that said that!
Very well put
Oklahoma's mascot is the sooner, the guys who cheated in the land run so Sooners are literally Cheaters!!!
And Oklahoma has two airports named after men who died in plane crashes!
Quote from: space_invader64 on December 01, 2007, 11:50:20 AM
And Oklahoma has two airports named after men who died in plane crashes!
No way! :o
This is so true!
Quote from: Just X on December 01, 2007, 07:18:40 AM
There is nothing like the Oklahoma/Texas rivalry.
Michigan vs. OSU
Clemson vs. S.Carolina
Bama vs. Auburn
Quote from: Jen on December 01, 2007, 11:36:37 PM
Quote from: space_invader64 on December 01, 2007, 11:50:20 AM
And Oklahoma has two airports named after men who died in plane crashes!
No way! :o
Yep, our airports are Will Rogers World Airport, and Wiley Post Airport. Both men were killed in a plane crash near Barrow, Alaska Territory in 1935.
That gives you a good feeling to get on the plane!
Quote from: space_invader64 on December 02, 2007, 10:07:16 AM
Quote from: Jen on December 01, 2007, 11:36:37 PM
Quote from: space_invader64 on December 01, 2007, 11:50:20 AM
And Oklahoma has two airports named after men who died in plane crashes!
No way! :o
Yep, our airports are Will Rogers World Airport, and Wiley Post Airport. Both men were killed in a plane crash near Barrow, Alaska Territory in 1935.
That gives you a good feeling to get on the plane!
/shiver
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