TREKS IN SCI-FI FORUM

There is a big debate about this at my gym.  I want to know what YOU think.

Thanks

Andy

Hands down he was playing Possum unless his begging was just horrible acting.......

Mace had him pinned to the floor.. he would have died if Anikin didn't rescue him.

I think he put himself in that postion to see where Anakin stood on loyalty. If he would have taken Mace's side he would have killed them both. If we are supposed to believe that he is so powerful to full even Yoda then how could Mace beat him who is not as strong with the force as Yoda. Just my opinion of course....

Palpatine was playing the situation for Anakin's benefit. He KNEW Anakin would come, he's a Sith Lord! Go watch the scene again, see his little sidelong glances at Anakin when Anakin is talking to Mace. His little cries for pity? Bogus! I'm with Blackride 100%, this was all part of the 'plan".

I think if Anakin hadn't shown up Mace would of won.  It was a calculated risk on Palpatine's part but it paid off.  Keep in mind this scene was originally written differently.  Anakin was suppose to arrive sooner.  But the way it plays out in the final cut, Mace has Palpatine down and has his lightsaber to protect him.  Without Anakin's intervention it would of been over for Papa Palpatine.

I just think him being able to be killed by Mace downplays the Emperors abilities. If he can fool Yoda and see the future then why would he be in that postion with Mace?

Honestly the best way to figure this out would be to look at the offical novel and or the offical script to see if there are any hints.

I think Palpatine's real power was in his ability to manipulate and control weaker people like Anakin.  His abilities to fight may not be quite as great as Mace or even Yoda.  Keep this in mind.  Even a beaten down Vader/Anakin was able to kill Palpatine in "Return of the Jedi" when Anakin was turned back to the good side by his son Luke.  I'm certain if Palpatine hadn't controlled and manipulated Anakin he would of been killed.  If not by Mace then by Anakin (if he hadn't turned) or even Yoda eventually.  At least that's my take on things.

I believe that Mace had Palpatine beat. I think the early interviews with Sam Jackson pretty much summed it up. He was the BEST Jedi to wield a lightsaber. Sure Palpy was playing on the surrender, but only to cement Anakin's fall. Even if he had died at that point, Palpatine had already doomed the Jedi to extinction and achieved a victory that was beyond all Sith before him, but Mace could have killed him if not for Anakin.

That's not Lucas style, however. Lucas wanted palpatine to be the ultimate power of evil, it makes Palpatine that much more believable as the pentultimate dark power by hiaving him in complete conrol of the situations in Ep's 1-3. You guys are looking at it too literally on the film as opposed to what the creator intends.

I read the book...I don't think it really said whether Palpatine was working Anakin..but I knew he was. I think Rico is right. Mace would have won, had Anakin not entered the room. Palpatine WAS manipulating the situation, but I think he may have grossely underestimated Mace....OK, I'm going to bring some EU to the table, so don't freak out on me. This stuff was written about before ROTS (Revenge of the Sith), in comic books (which we know George reads) and video games so it's a plausable explaination of how/why Mace would have beat Palpatine.

Mace's lightsaber form is called Vaapad, it's unique to all the Jedi save two (his former apprentice, Depa Billaba and Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos's instructor). So not many Jedi (dark or otherwise) know how to defend themselves against it. Mace had to draw on the darkside to use it...and he was feeding on Palpatine's energy to do so.

"Vaapad is a channel for one's inner darkness; and it is a reflecting device. With strict control, a person's own emotions and inner darkness can be changed into a weapon of the light. Vaapad is able to take the hatred, anger and rage of the opponent and reflect it back at him. In his fight with Palpatine, Mace Windu used Palpatine's own speed and hatred against him, reflecting it back against the Sith Lord and using it as his own power." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

Wow Jen,

That is really cool.  I did not know that.

Very Intersting.

Andy

Quote from: Bryancd on September 19, 2007, 06:28:38 PM
That's not Lucas style, however. Lucas wanted palpatine to be the ultimate power of evil, it makes Palpatine that much more believable as the pentultimate dark power by hiaving him in complete conrol of the situations in Ep's 1-3. You guys are looking at it too literally on the film as opposed to what the creator intends.

That pretty much sums up how I feel too. The ultimate source of power and manipulation.

But again, I think it's now even more clear (especially after Jen's info) that Mace had Palpy beat.  Only due to Anakin's intervention was he able to beat Mace.  I think this also is the big reason Mace didn't want Anakin to go with them to arrest Palpy.  He knew Anakin was conflicted and not strong enough to resist Palpy's manipulations.

Also, according to more EU (Dark Empire), even if mace had killed the emperor, he would have just transferred his essence to a new body (if he was capable of that at this time). So maybe it was a risk, but the stakes might not have been as high as we think.

Quote from: Rico on September 20, 2007, 05:26:25 AM
But again, I think it's now even more clear (especially after Jen's info) that Mace had Palpy beat.  Only due to Anakin's intervention was he able to beat Mace.  I think this also is the big reason Mace didn't want Anakin to go with them to arrest Palpy.  He knew Anakin was conflicted and not strong enough to resist Palpy's manipulations.

If that's true then that's some bad acting. imo

I need to go get the book and see if they expand on it at all.

Also, if Palpatine was all powerful...why would he need Anakan? He could just rule his roost alone, without the worry of having another Sith waiting to challenge his power.

"Always two there are; no more, no less: a master and an apprentice."

Yoda rules. It's the way of things. No questions.

Here is the full explanation of the "rule of two":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_two (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_two)

Quote from: billybob476 on September 20, 2007, 10:54:24 AM
"Always two there are; no more, no less: a master and an apprentice."

Yoda rules. It's the way of things. No questions.

Here is the full explanation of the "rule of two":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_two (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_two)

Geez I know that.   ::)

If he were all powerful would Palpatine waste the time to turn Anakin? I don't think soâ€"he needed him to defeat the Jedi and establish himself as the emperor.

And later on Vader would try and do the same with Luke. However Luke seemed to think that falling into an endless abyss was preferable to ruling the galaxy with his dad.

True, but Palpatine wanted a younger, more powerful apprentice. Vader was his thug and he was getting old. The same thing happened to Duku.

Isn't it possible Papa Palpatine :) could have seen this future event ?

Quote from: markinro on September 20, 2007, 11:36:11 AM
Isn't it possible Papa Palpatine :) could have seen this future event ?

Maybe, however always in motion is the future. I think Vader was actually serious when he told Luke they'd overthrow the emperor. Lucas mentioned something about it in the ESB commentary. Then Vader would become the master and Luke the apprentice. Vader couldn't on his own becuase of his injuries. He needed Luke to be his weapon.

I honestly love these discussions :)...even if you don't agree with me :)

I can debate Star Wars all day.

Yep - good discussion here.  Just realized this should be in the Star Wars section.  Moving it.

Mace had the Emperor down.  End of story.  You could see the fear in his eyes and trust me, it wasn't acting.  Its a pity Yoda didn't get him.

King Linksr

For the ultimate Sith master, his students kind of sucked. The ONLY ones with any longevity were trained by Yoda or his heirs. The one he trained on his own got killed by a padawan.

Also, the emperor used political power, not sith power to seize control. In point of fact, with out the extended universe to count on, he only ever displayed a bit of lightning.

Quote from: Just X on September 20, 2007, 04:00:28 PM
Also, the emperor used political power, not sith power to seize control. In point of fact, with out the extended universe to count on, he only ever displayed a bit of lightning.

He ised his Sith power to hide himself and his intentions from Yoda and the rest of the senate.

Check this out.....It seems that even the book did not determine which way this was happening..


The novelization stated that Darth Sidious could indeed sense the approach of the four Jedi Masters, as well as the emotional turmoil of Anakin Skywalker, who was still waiting in the Council Chamber. The novel also described Palpatine's preparations for the upcoming duel in detail, including how he recovered his Sith lightsaber and prepared an audio recording.

During the duel, Saesee Tiin was beheaded when Sidious tricked him and caught him off guard. Agen Kolar was then impaled through the head by Palpatine's lightsaber.

Anakin Skywalker, recognizing the consequences of what he did by revealing Palpatine, rushed to the Chancellor's office. Shaak Ti stood in his way and tried to convince Anakin not to go, but Anakin rudely refused to obey the Jedi Master.

As he arrived, he witnessed the battle between Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, and Palpatine by hovering his speeder outside Palpatine's office window. He could not yet determine who the combatants were, seeing only their lightsabers. When the green blade flicked out, he smashed the window to Palpatine's private office and leapt through. There, he found the dead body of Kolar and the heads of Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto. Anakin was able to watch the epic lightsaber duel between Windu and Palpatine for some time, instead of arriving just in time when the Jedi knocked down Sidious in the movie.


Duel with the Chancellor.Mace Windu could sense the approach of Anakin through the Force before he broke the office window, so it was reasonable for Darth Sidious to have the same experience. When the fight moved to the ledge, Mace described sensing Palpatine's momentary hesitation as the Sith Lord decreased his speed.

Whether it was an intentional trick on the part of Palpatine or whether Windu truly out-sparred the Sith Lord is confirmed in neither the movie nor the novel. Mace confessed, however, that Vaapad could not overpower the Sith Lord, and it was his shatterpoint ability which allowed him to gain the upper hand. In the book, Mace Windu did not kick Palpatine's jaw, and he sliced the Chancellor's weapon in half rather than knocking it from his grasp.

When Mace held Palpatine at blade point, he explained to the Sith Lord why Darth Sidious and his shadowy order always lose: because they were always defeated by their own fear. Palpatine countered by screaming "Fool! Do you think the fear you feel is mine?" and blasted the Jedi Master with Force lightning.

In the fight, Mace Windu realized that Palpatine's shatterpoint was Anakin Skywalker himself. When Anakin approached Mace, who was struggling to deflect the lightning blasts, Mace sensed that Palpatine did not fear Anakin at all, and that the Sith Lord would make no move to defend himself. Mace concluded that this was the shatterpoint of the Sith, and the absolute shatterpoint of the dark side itself.

Ultimately when Mace was betrayed by Anakin and blasted by Darth Sidious, he came to the shocking realization that although Anakin Skywalker indeed was the shatterpoint of Darth Sidious, he forgot to look for the shatterpoint of Anakin himself: his desire to save his wife at any cost.  

Exactly. Sith lightning was his secret weapon. He could have zapped Mace, but he waited. He baited Mace into thinking  he was defeated in order to turn Anakin's sympathy towards him and his claim to be able to save Panda Bear. Just look at his face lying there under Mace's blade! He whimpers and cries and then gives a sly little glance over at Anakin to see how it's playing out. He hit's Mace with lightning and Mace blocks it. He plays weak. Then when Anakin makes his turn, he let's Mace have the full power and fired him. It makes the whole confrontation far less interesting if Anakin really effected the outcome as it was all contrived in the first place.

I read ROTS and I also read Shatterpoint, by Matthew Stover. They're very a good books, I highly recommend them....I recommend the ROTS novelization, especially if you were dissatisfied with the movie. 

In the novel "Shatterpoint" it talks a lot about Mace's ability to detect weaknesses which are referred to as "Shatterpoints"...Kreia, from Knights Of The Old Republic, referred to them fractures, which can be can be manipulated by finding the "critical point". Anikan was Palpatine's critical point...and Mace missed it...so Mace died. 

Palpatine is obviously very manipulative, maybe that's his real power...Remember Palpatine can see the future. He knew that Anakin would save him. That could also be the reason why he's smirking.

And now this topic is officially too geeky, so let's just agree to disagree before we start talking like the Comic Book guy on the Simpsons. "Worst episode EVER."

One final point. I Think that giving him the advantage because he could see the future is flawed. Perhaps he could see a little of the future, but nowhere near all seeing. If he was, he would have known about Luke, protected the death star better, and knew his student would be the death of him.

Maybe he can only see the near future...Luke is still two decades away.

I can agree with that, but it wouldn't explain how he missed them when he was in the timeframe. He looked surprised when he got tossed down the well. He also seemed to really be fighting a losing battle against mace. Unless he allowed the dark side to cook his face on purpose. I think he was smiling more because balance was brought to the force. At the end of the purge, there were only two of each sect really left. Two dark and two light. Perhaps the emperor wooed Anakin so that his place as one of the two could be secured.

Quote from: Just X on September 20, 2007, 06:34:26 PM
I can agree with that, but it wouldn't explain how he missed them when he was in the timeframe. He looked surprised when he got tossed down the well.

I see your point. But in Return of the Jedi, maybe the old crusty coot was so confident in Vader's loyalty that the "future was clouded" to him, as it had been to the Jedi during the Clone Wars. Maybe Vader's confusion, or the good Luke felt in him, stirred up the sediment of arrogance, which comes from years of supreme power, within the Emperor...He couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Here again is proof that the Emperor wasn't all powerful. He got tossed like a sack of electric potatoes into a big hole. If he was all powerful he would
have flown out. Eh...now I'm just arguing for the sake of argument. I'm done. Over and out...  :D

Quote from: Jen on September 20, 2007, 06:03:35 PM
And now this topic is officially too geeky

I think that happend days ago.... :)

I think this topic would get too geeky if we started talking about thrust/weight ratios of Incom 4J4 Fusial thrust engines.

I always saw it as a combination of both answers.  I think Mace MAY have had him beat but I think Palpatine felt Anakins presence getting closer and it was a necessary risk  in order to prove to Anakin that "the jedi are trying to take over".  Palps was planting the seed of doubt regarding the Jedi's intentions for half the movie.  Palps himself is confident in telling Genaeral Grievous "Soon I will have a new apprentice.  One far younger and more powerful".  I just believe that are too many clues to say that Mace had him beat straight up.  I think Mace may have the upperhand but I am pretty sure it is because Palpatine half let him.

Good analysis Darth.  I pretty much think the same way.  His skills with a saber couldn't match Mace anyway so he had to use other means to win.  Honestly, I was never a big fan of this whole scene and part of the movie.  I always had felt Anakin turning to the darkside should of been more dramatic and tragic.  I had always thought that the death of Padme would of been the logical thing to drive him over the edge.

Here was my idea while I had three years between movies to think on it:

Padme begins to be fearful of Anakin and his growing need for power.  Just before she has the twins she runs off to Naboo to have them in secret.  She heads back and leaves the twins in the care of her parents on Naboo.  Then she is needed to mediate some type of dispute.  Anakin wants to go to her because he continues to have dreams of her death.  Obi-Wan tells him no.  Just as she gets back to Coruscant he heads to meet her ship and it explodes (kind of like the start of AOTC).  Anakin screams and goes basically berserk.  Embracing the darkside and blaming the Jedi (especially Obi-Wan) for her death. 

Anyway - a little bit of a tangent.  But I thought I'd share my ideas.    :luke

I have to agree about the scene and Anakin turning. It's kind of like this:

Anakin: "I have to stop you!"
Palp: "I can save your wife from dying, just be evil with me"
Anakin: "Oh. Really? Ok, I'll go kill kids now."

There needed to be a bit more of a fall from grace I think. Then again, if the emperor is capable of manipulating him like that, maybe he was just manipulating Windu as well and could have killed him whenever he wanted.

Rico and Billybob's analysis are good reasons to agree with Jen and suggest the RotS novelization.  Stover does an excellent job of chronicaling the fall of Anakin.  There is so much more to it than what is in the movie.

This is a real good thread, and everyone has such good points for each side of this debate. I wish I had more of side on this, but I am more down the middle. I think Darth Gaos summed up my thoughts pretty well on the scene. I do agree as well, that I felt that Anakin got turned pretty easily, and not overly convincing to me. I think the Death of Padme should have been more of a catalyst then some bad dreams and lopping of Maces arm.