Hi all, I thought it'd be interesting to have a debate on a hot topic. I'd like to say up front, let's keep this civil (:) ) and remember everyone is entitled to my...er, I mean their own opinion! (Yes...even King is!) :o
Ok, with the recent hack attempt of the DreamHost site, I thought how silly it is that we as a WORLD aren't taking computer hackers and computer virus authors more seriously as criminals. I know a lot of people will protest and say they're just misguided younglings with too much time on their hands and shouldn't be treated harshly...but I say bah! There's a very stark reality we need to face: quite possibly the next horrific terrorist attack will be in the cyber realm. Think about what someone could do with a devastatingly vicious virus: completely cripple a country! Now take that a step deeper. If some "misguided youth" were to hack and screw up the computer network of a healthcare facility, that could and would cause death. And, how about that "misguided youth" who creates a virus or worm that can get into the defense grid of a country (US) and disable it? All because they're bored?
If we had a ZERO tolerance stand on any sort of cyber type hacking/virus building...that bored kid would be a little less likely to create something just because he can. He may take a moment to think if he gets caught...uh-oh. I mean, most places have a zero tolerance policy on drugs, why are we letting this type of crime go virtually unpunished? All we need is to have some kid develop some nasty thing and have a REAL bada$$ copy it and make it even more devastating... :2cents
Bring me up to speed on this, Al. I recall last week the hacking issue of Dreamhost that effected both you and Rico and maybe Rick, but I was unaware that they caught whoever did it or were not going to prosecute. is that the case?
I'm not sure this attitude you speak of is like that. As far as the government/businesses are concerned, they take hacking super seriously. Several members of Anonymous were arrested a couple months back for hacking government websites. And if they continue to do so the government will continue to hunt them down and prosecute them. This crime isn't going virtually unpunished, its just extremely difficult to find them. I'm not sure how the FBI even found the members of Anonymous, but I'm willing to bet it wasn't all that easy. I've never heard of anyone being caught for hacking and not sentenced.
And really, "bored" kids aren't going to invent the super-virus that will do the things that you say they will. Considering that there are former hackers that work for the government's security.
King
Quote from: Bryancd on January 23, 2012, 09:32:33 AM
Bring me up to speed on this, Al. I recall last week the hacking issue of Dreamhost that effected both you and Rico and maybe Rick, but I was unaware that they caught whoever did it or were not going to prosecute. is that the case?
Bryan, no, I don't think they caught the culprit yet. But it did make me wonder why society allows these people to go virtually unprosecuted...
Quote from: QuadShot on January 23, 2012, 10:04:46 AM
Quote from: Bryancd on January 23, 2012, 09:32:33 AM
Bring me up to speed on this, Al. I recall last week the hacking issue of Dreamhost that effected both you and Rico and maybe Rick, but I was unaware that they caught whoever did it or were not going to prosecute. is that the case?
Bryan, no, I don't think they caught the culprit yet. But it did make me wonder why society allows these people to go virtually unprosecuted...
Are they often actually found and NOT prosecuted?
Quote from: KingIsaacLinksr on January 23, 2012, 10:00:12 AM
I'm not sure this attitude you speak of is like that. As far as the government/businesses are concerned, they take hacking super seriously. Several members of Anonymous were arrested a couple months back for hacking government websites. And if they continue to do so the government will continue to hunt them down and prosecute them. This crime isn't going virtually unpunished, its just extremely difficult to find them. I'm not sure how the FBI even found the members of Anonymous, but I'm willing to bet it wasn't all that easy. I've never heard of anyone being caught for hacking and not sentenced.
And really, "bored" kids aren't going to invent the super-virus that will do the things that you say they will. Considering that there are former hackers that work for the government's security.
King
I've seen the mind set on these very forums many times King. A lot people here say that these individuals should not be treated as terrorists...that's where I disagree. And yes, I do believe that "bored" kids with HUGE tech skills could and would devise a scenario that I outlined. If I implied that I think governments/businesses don't take this stuff seriously, then I didn't state my stand clearly, sorry about that. I'm sure they do view this as serious, but the laws are too lax. As I said, they should be prosecuted 100%...and as terrorists. If I were to walk onto an airliner and pull a gun, commence mugging people do you think I'd only be charged with armed robbery? Nope. They'd charge me with hijacking, and terrorism to a degree. So...if you're hacking someone's site, you're a terrorist. My view...:)
Well, by hacking a web site I would imagine the motivation, if not financial, is to cause disruption of service, similar to what a terrorist might be looking to achieve by hijacking a plane. So I can see the analogy.
Quote from: Bryancd on January 23, 2012, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: QuadShot on January 23, 2012, 10:04:46 AM
Quote from: Bryancd on January 23, 2012, 09:32:33 AM
Bring me up to speed on this, Al. I recall last week the hacking issue of Dreamhost that effected both you and Rico and maybe Rick, but I was unaware that they caught whoever did it or were not going to prosecute. is that the case?
Bryan, no, I don't think they caught the culprit yet. But it did make me wonder why society allows these people to go virtually unprosecuted...
Are they often actually found and NOT prosecuted?
I believe they're not prosecuted to the fullest. The point of my rant isn't that these folks aren't being caught or prosecuted, but that they should be prosecuted as a form of terrorism because of the possibilities I outlined. Just throwing stuff out there :) Like I said, the recent DreamHost issue was averted, no real harm done other than my having to reset my passwords, etc. But it got me to thinking what would happen should someone actually succeed at shutting down a network, like the financial network this country depends on. What would happen?
Quote from: QuadShot on January 23, 2012, 10:16:13 AM
Quote from: Bryancd on January 23, 2012, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: QuadShot on January 23, 2012, 10:04:46 AM
Quote from: Bryancd on January 23, 2012, 09:32:33 AM
Bring me up to speed on this, Al. I recall last week the hacking issue of Dreamhost that effected both you and Rico and maybe Rick, but I was unaware that they caught whoever did it or were not going to prosecute. is that the case?
Bryan, no, I don't think they caught the culprit yet. But it did make me wonder why society allows these people to go virtually unprosecuted...
Are they often actually found and NOT prosecuted?
I believe they're not prosecuted to the fullest. The point of my rant isn't that these folks aren't being caught or prosecuted, but that they should be prosecuted as a form of terrorism because of the possibilities I outlined. Just throwing stuff out there :) Like I said, the recent DreamHost issue was averted, no real harm done other than my having to reset my passwords, etc. But it got me to thinking what would happen should someone actually succeed at shutting down a network, like the financial network this country depends on. What would happen?
I'm not saying we shouldn't prosecute them, but treating them like terrorists when they haven't actually done anything terroristy in hopes of dissuading future possible "terrorists" is not how you stop terrorists.
I'm just curious, but what do you propose we do to these hackers? Throw them in jail? Kill them? What? I'd say the laws as they are, balance out to the crimes that they have committed which really, isn't all that damaging in the long run right now. You cannot hope to prevent people from doing the scenario you outlined simply by having the harsh laws there. I think the death penalty for murder is proof enough that people can and will ignore laws to do what they want to do regardless of the consequences. So I'm curious what laws you think we can pass that could prevent such really bad hacking from POSSIBLY happening.
King
I'm pretty sure that until not that long ago, not only were some hackers not punished or prosecuted, they were actually often rewarded for their efforts. I'll bet with a little bit of searching we could find people who started out as hackers and wound up being hired, often by the very companies they hacked into, with lucrative contracts or employment for preventing the very hacking they perpetrated in the first place. I know in the gaming industry there are examples of people that reverse engineered game software, created levels or modifications to the software, and wound up being hired by the companies based on the popularity of their mods.
I don't know if I agree with equating the Sarah Palin social engineering hack with Al Quaida and wouldn't advocate the same degree of punishment by any means. I'll say here what I said in another thread somewhere on here, "Let the punishment fit the crime," but in general with the degree and speed we are becoming more and more dependant on 24 hour a day internet access in many aspects of our lives, it's something worth thinking about for sure.
You guys rock...I love this! That's why I started this. I want to see how many of you support terrorism...and who I should banish to the Outlands when I become supreme ruler. :) I'm kidding...or am I? :dry
King you do make a good point (I can see you know...you're actually feeling faint because I said that!), putting murders to death isn't a fool proof way of preventing murder. But you all have to agree that this cyber stuff is going to be a big BOOM someday. I have no idea what laws to propose, or how to enforce them. If I did, I sure as heck wouldn't be working in a dead end job, hating just about every minute of it, for little money! What I am saying is that SOMETHING MUST BE DONE to stop this crap. I get so tired of having people hack in to things they have no business being in. I get so sick of ATT telling me yet again, someone has attempted to get into my account and my password is not valid any longer. Mark my words, some day, sooner than we think, someone is going to crash the whole network down. Then how will you download your movies King? :)
Quote from: QuadShot on January 23, 2012, 10:41:07 AM
You guys rock...I love this! That's why I started this. I want to see how many of you support terrorism...and who I should banish to the Outlands when I become supreme ruler. :) I'm kidding...or am I? :dry
King you do make a good point (I can see you know...you're actually feeling faint because I said that!), putting murders to death isn't a fool proof way of preventing murder. But you all have to agree that this cyber stuff is going to be a big BOOM someday. I have no idea what laws to propose, or how to enforce them. If I did, I sure as heck wouldn't be working in a dead end job, hating just about every minute of it, for little money! What I am saying is that SOMETHING MUST BE DONE to stop this crap. I get so tired of having people hack in to things they have no business being in. I get so sick of ATT telling me yet again, someone has attempted to get into my account and my password is not valid any longer. Mark my words, some day, sooner than we think, someone is going to crash the whole network down. Then how will you download your movies King? :)
/me feels faint, passes out, with the final words: "someone sees my point of view!!!!!!"
:P
King
As one person of many who has had their PC wrecked and lost stuff from viruses, I agree that these guys are criminals...I think it's our century's version of the organized crime epidemic of the mid-20th century. I sure would like to get a hold of the guy that kiled my last computer. Cost me alot of money and heartache.
Quote from: Chris-El on January 23, 2012, 01:02:41 PM
As one person of many who has had their PC wrecked and lost stuff from viruses, I agree that these guys are criminals...I think it's our century's version of the organized crime epidemic of the mid-20th century. I sure would like to get a hold of the guy that kiled my last computer. Cost me alot of money and heartache.
Chris...you and me...we form a new agency tasked with tracking these jackas$e$ down and administering OUR brand of justice!! I hear you brother. These lowlifes have caused me more than my share of caked underpants than I want to remember!
YEAH! And we can get Bill Curtis from American Justice to narrate our exploits. I'm reminded of the scene from Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back wehere they go knocking on these pimply faced anonymous internet turds and give 'em what for.
O_o...........
*runs away*
King
Quote from: Chris-El on January 23, 2012, 02:00:39 PM
YEAH! And we can get Bill Curtis from American Justice to narrate our exploits. I'm reminded of the scene from Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back wehere they go knocking on these pimply faced anonymous internet turds and give 'em what for.
:) OH YEAH!!!!
Quote from: KingIsaacLinksr on January 23, 2012, 02:13:12 PM
O_o...........
*runs away*
King
Nah, you're a good guy. You've never made a virus...HAVE YOU???????
Quote from: Chris-El on January 23, 2012, 03:46:40 PM
Quote from: KingIsaacLinksr on January 23, 2012, 02:13:12 PM
O_o...........
*runs away*
King
Nah, you're a good guy. You've never made a virus...HAVE YOU???????
But...we DO have our eyes on you.... :wacko
Quote from: Chris-El on January 23, 2012, 03:46:40 PM
Quote from: KingIsaacLinksr on January 23, 2012, 02:13:12 PM
O_o...........
*runs away*
King
Nah, you're a good guy. You've never made a virus...HAVE YOU???????
Who, innocent little me? Make a virus? Idk what your talking about. *whistles innocently*
;)
King
Who hasn't made a virus? I mean that's one of the first things you learn in programming. Nothing harmful, but simple self replicating code.
I'm not a lawyer, but I think one thing they look at is damages done in any crime. The Dreamhost "hack" was pretty minor and caught easily enough to avoid any real damage.
On another note, my younger son is a computer science major and has had courses on computer security. It's important to learn about things like a computer worm or virus in order to be able to detect and stop them. Know your enemy. :)
Quote from: X on January 23, 2012, 08:34:43 PM
Who hasn't made a virus? I mean that's one of the first things you learn in programming. Nothing harmful, but simple self replicating code.
Me. I haven't made a virus. Well, unless you count that super flu I cooked up in my lab late one night! :)
Quote from: QuadShot on January 24, 2012, 06:25:58 AM
Quote from: X on January 23, 2012, 08:34:43 PM
Who hasn't made a virus? I mean that's one of the first things you learn in programming. Nothing harmful, but simple self replicating code.
Me. I haven't made a virus. Well, unless you count that super flu I cooked up in my lab late one night! :)
Do you or have you done much programming?
Interesting, no mention of perhaps the best known military/defense computer virus attack: Stuxnet. Here's a virus that specifically targetted the embedded computers used for iran's nuclear program, with the goal of sabotaging one a of the automated processes. And that's one we know about... Imagine the stuff out there we don't know about yet?
Quote from: X on January 24, 2012, 06:31:45 AM
Quote from: QuadShot on January 24, 2012, 06:25:58 AM
Quote from: X on January 23, 2012, 08:34:43 PM
Who hasn't made a virus? I mean that's one of the first things you learn in programming. Nothing harmful, but simple self replicating code.
Me. I haven't made a virus. Well, unless you count that super flu I cooked up in my lab late one night! :)
Do you or have you done much programming?
X, no. I'm one of those wannabe computer people. I love computers and technology, but not smart enough to know how they really work or how to create.
Quote from: QuadShot on January 24, 2012, 07:32:15 AM
Quote from: X on January 24, 2012, 06:31:45 AM
Quote from: QuadShot on January 24, 2012, 06:25:58 AM
Quote from: X on January 23, 2012, 08:34:43 PM
Who hasn't made a virus? I mean that's one of the first things you learn in programming. Nothing harmful, but simple self replicating code.
Me. I haven't made a virus. Well, unless you count that super flu I cooked up in my lab late one night! :)
Do you or have you done much programming?
X, no. I'm one of those wannabe computer people. I love computers and technology, but not smart enough to know how they really work or how to create.
Me too. Which is probably why we are getting these viruses so much, eh Quad?
I do wish wish the term "hacker" wasn't mis-associated with people who break into computer systems like it is so much these days. Unfortunately the word "hacker" has changed its meaning as much as the word "evangelist" has in modern media.
It isn't the original meaning of the word. A true hacker is somebody who wants to know how technology works, adapt and improve it.
Some well known "hackers" include: Steve Jobs, Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds, James Dyson...
Pretty much all the Open Source community is made up of true hackers.
These criminals are best described as "crackers" or "black hats", not hackers in the true sense.
This is a hacker: http://pathbridge.net/chikofsky/ (http://pathbridge.net/chikofsky/)
This was one of my comp science teachers. The man is brilliant.
Quote from: Dangelus on January 25, 2012, 12:58:11 AM
I do wish wish the term "hacker" wasn't mis-associated with people who break into computer systems like it is so much these days. Unfortunately the word "hacker" has changed its meaning as much as the word "evangelist" has in modern media.
It isn't the original meaning of the word. A true hacker is somebody who wants to know how technology works, adapt and improve it.
Some well known "hackers" include: Steve Jobs, Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds, James Dyson...
Pretty much all the Open Source community is made up of true hackers.
These criminals are best described as "crackers" or "black hats", not hackers in the true sense.
Dan, I stand corrected. And I apologize for lumping these criminals in under the term hacker. You are correct, hacking was never (I believe) intended to define what these ass-jacks are doing. But...I must say, at least in the U.S., the term "cracker" is a bit unfortunate! :) It means something completely different! :)
Quote from: X on January 25, 2012, 05:33:20 AM
This is a hacker: http://pathbridge.net/chikofsky/ (http://pathbridge.net/chikofsky/)
This was one of my comp science teachers. The man is brilliant.
X, again, I stand corrected. Thanks. And that guy looks a bit like Steve Wozniak! :)
Quote from: Chris-El on January 24, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
Quote from: QuadShot on January 24, 2012, 07:32:15 AM
Quote from: X on January 24, 2012, 06:31:45 AM
Quote from: QuadShot on January 24, 2012, 06:25:58 AM
Quote from: X on January 23, 2012, 08:34:43 PM
Who hasn't made a virus? I mean that's one of the first things you learn in programming. Nothing harmful, but simple self replicating code.
Me. I haven't made a virus. Well, unless you count that super flu I cooked up in my lab late one night! :)
Do you or have you done much programming?
X, no. I'm one of those wannabe computer people. I love computers and technology, but not smart enough to know how they really work or how to create.
Me too. Which is probably why we are getting these viruses so much, eh Quad?
Yep...too true. Which is partly why I switched to an iMac. Not as many of those nasty little demons! :)
Quote from: QuadShot on January 25, 2012, 06:37:41 AM
Quote from: Chris-El on January 24, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
Quote from: QuadShot on January 24, 2012, 07:32:15 AM
Quote from: X on January 24, 2012, 06:31:45 AM
Quote from: QuadShot on January 24, 2012, 06:25:58 AM
Quote from: X on January 23, 2012, 08:34:43 PM
Who hasn't made a virus? I mean that's one of the first things you learn in programming. Nothing harmful, but simple self replicating code.
Me. I haven't made a virus. Well, unless you count that super flu I cooked up in my lab late one night! :)
Do you or have you done much programming?
X, no. I'm one of those wannabe computer people. I love computers and technology, but not smart enough to know how they really work or how to create.
Me too. Which is probably why we are getting these viruses so much, eh Quad?
Yep...too true. Which is partly why I switched to an iMac. Not as many of those nasty little demons! :)
Just wait on that. As soon as Mac gets a large enough marketshare to make it worth their time, Macs will see far more hacking and virus issues than it does now, which is already pretty much on par with PC virus issues.
X, yeah, I agree. Sad too really. We have such awesome technology in this world that benefit all of us in so many positive ways. But, like I always say, introduce something pure and positive in this world and I guarantee someone will find a way to bastardize it. It's in our DNA really: the desire to destroy. Impromptu question for you and everyone else: why do you think people create destructive viruses, or attempt to destroy stuff?
Quote from: QuadShot on January 25, 2012, 07:06:52 AM
X, yeah, I agree. Sad too really. We have such awesome technology in this world that benefit all of us in so many positive ways. But, like I always say, introduce something pure and positive in this world and I guarantee someone will find a way to bastardize it. It's in our DNA really: the desire to destroy. Impromptu question for you and everyone else: why do you think people create destructive viruses, or attempt to destroy stuff?
Honestly? I think it's less with destroying and more with conquering. Everyone wants to feel like a success and a winner at some point in their lives. Everyone, however briefly, wants the spotlight. I see these viruses as the ultimate "pay attention to me!" cry that we have seen in so many people in the world. In the end everyone wants to be successful in something and unfortunately, this is a case where destruction is far easier to achieve than innovation.
It can also be a bit of revenge in some cases. Imagine the lonely geek that has been physically and mentally bullied finally having a way to strike back with something that doesn't physically harm anyone. Sometimes our actions early in life create problems later in life.
Quote from: X on January 25, 2012, 09:31:30 AM
Quote from: QuadShot on January 25, 2012, 07:06:52 AM
X, yeah, I agree. Sad too really. We have such awesome technology in this world that benefit all of us in so many positive ways. But, like I always say, introduce something pure and positive in this world and I guarantee someone will find a way to bastardize it. It's in our DNA really: the desire to destroy. Impromptu question for you and everyone else: why do you think people create destructive viruses, or attempt to destroy stuff?
Honestly? I think it's less with destroying and more with conquering. Everyone wants to feel like a success and a winner at some point in their lives. Everyone, however briefly, wants the spotlight. I see these viruses as the ultimate "pay attention to me!" cry that we have seen in so many people in the world. In the end everyone wants to be successful in something and unfortunately, this is a case where destruction is far easier to achieve than innovation.
It can also be a bit of revenge in some cases. Imagine the lonely geek that has been physically and mentally bullied finally having a way to strike back with something that doesn't physically harm anyone. Sometimes our actions early in life create problems later in life.
I like that X...great answer. I tend to agree. I think most of the "harm" we humans do, computer viruses to shooting up a political function in Tucson and killing several people is designed to draw attention. "Here I Am!"
People just want to be known, heard, seen, something to make them feel less lonely. Something I can certainly understand...
King
Quote from: KingIsaacLinksr on January 25, 2012, 10:37:26 AM
People just want to be known, heard, seen, something to make them feel less lonely. Something I can certainly understand...
King
Uh...should we be concerned?
Quote from: QuadShot on January 25, 2012, 10:46:11 AM
Quote from: KingIsaacLinksr on January 25, 2012, 10:37:26 AM
People just want to be known, heard, seen, something to make them feel less lonely. Something I can certainly understand...
King
Uh...should we be concerned?
For them yes, not for me ;).
King
Quote from: KingIsaacLinksr on January 25, 2012, 10:37:26 AM
People just want to be known, heard, seen, something to make them feel less lonely. Something I can certainly understand...
King
They should just join the forums here, for all the love and brotherhood anyone needs
Quote from: KingIsaacLinksr on January 25, 2012, 10:54:01 AM
Quote from: QuadShot on January 25, 2012, 10:46:11 AM
Quote from: KingIsaacLinksr on January 25, 2012, 10:37:26 AM
People just want to be known, heard, seen, something to make them feel less lonely. Something I can certainly understand...
King
Uh...should we be concerned?
For them yes, not for me ;).
King
I can get that. When I was a wee lad, I did sports, drama, band, shop and programming in school. I was in most of the popular cliques and some of the not so popular ones. I also did my share of old school hacking with 2400 bps modems when everyone else was rocking the 600 bps. Hitting up BBSes and even knocking on the doors of a few USAF servers. Looking back, I see that all of my actions and choices were probably coming from the same source. I wanted to push myself and know more. Had I known then what I know now, I could have shaped my desire for knowledge into a better career path, but hindsight is what it is. I think that this is probably one of the key difference between the old and new guard.
So people did what they did to explore the fledgling digital universe and later generations are attempting to conquer it. We were the Lewis and Clarks, Marco Polos, and Cooks of the early world and now the world is filled with Cortezes, Napoleons, and Khans. People not interested in seeing what's on the other side for the wonder, but those that are trying to make their mark. If killing the natives off with small pox starts to happen, they don't see it as their problem.
Heh, I was never part of the popular cliques. As far as programming goes, I have very little experience. The closest is base HTML. I did participate in bands all through High School.
King
Quote from: KingIsaacLinksr on January 26, 2012, 10:01:57 AM
Heh, I was never part of the popular cliques. As far as programming goes, I have very little experience. The closest is base HTML. I did participate in bands all through High School.
King
Programming? Heck, I can barely program my VCR! :)