This is crazy. A major UK electronics retailer has been caught producing and selling there own Windows recovery CDs.
Comet are already struggling but being sued by Microsoft may spell the end. The company is already looking for a buyer but I can't see anybody touching tem with this lawsuit over their heads....
http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/04/microsoft-uk-retailer-sold-94-000-counterfeit-copies-of-window/ (http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/04/microsoft-uk-retailer-sold-94-000-counterfeit-copies-of-window/)
Ouch! And here I thought all pirates just used bittorrent. ;)
i wonder how this is going to turn out.... what will happen to the pirated disks already out there? will microsoft still allow them to be used?
I think they will try to fine them per unit of disc. 94,000 discs, if they ask for $10,000 per instance of copyright breach....
Bye bye Comet! :)
Wow, they really thought they could get away with that many? Well...goodbye.
King
Update: Comet has issued the following response to Microsoft's statement which we've got for you in full, after the break.
"We note that proceedings have been issued by Microsoft Corporation against Comet relating to the creation of recovery discs by Comet on behalf of its customers.
Comet has sought and received legal advice from leading counsel to support its view that the production of recovery discs did not infringe Microsoft's intellectual property.
Comet firmly believes that it acted in the very best interests of its customers. It believes its customers had been adversely affected by the decision to stop supplying recovery discs with each new Microsoft Operating System based computer.
Accordingly Comet is satisfied that it has a good defence to the claim and will defend its position vigorously."
OK, recovery CDs I can sort of understand the reason for. It's not quite as cut and dried as if they had been selling counterfeit copies of Windows itself.
Yep it was always reported to be recovery CDs but that doesn't make any difference. It's still the Windows OS and code in there, just it can only be used to restore the hard drive of a particular manufacturer.
This will be interesting as it seems from that statement they are admitting it and blame MS decision to stop supplying discs as the reason. This won't stand up legally at all.
I know they've sought advice but I can't see how it's legal. The UK doesn't even have a fair use policy for backing up copyrighted material for personal use never mind to sell to the public!
It would be like HMV selling a DVD that used to have bonus features but was discontinued and replaced with a vanilla disc to then insert a disc with a copy of those extras on a separate disc...
This is serious stuff for Comet...
I have a friend who works for comet, i'll have a word and see what she says or if anything has been mentioned to them.
Yeah, they are going to get slammed in court. It doesn't matter if you were doing it for the good of the customers, piracy is pretty clear cut in the legal system.
They'll be lucky if they can settle this...
King
What I'm not clear on is whether they were actually selling the CDs or simply supplying them as part of the package with the PCs they sold.
If the former then I agree with the above assessment. If not, then I think there may be a grey area they'll try and claim (assuming the user is allowed to create a recovery disk from the PCs in question).
Quote from: Feathers on January 05, 2012, 02:21:35 AM
What I'm not clear on is whether they were actually selling the CDs or simply supplying them as part of the package with the PCs they sold.
If the former then I agree with the above assessment. If not, then I think there may be a grey area they'll try and claim (assuming the user is allowed to create a recovery disk from the PCs in question).
Apparently they were offering the CDs to their PC customers for £14.99!
I can't see how they are going to defend this.
One of the problems with selling PC's with Window's installed already is generally these days the customer doesn't get any physical copies of Windows on backup CD's/DVD. You can make your own backup (if you think of it) but most people don't do that. So if their hard drive and OS gets trashed they are kind of out of luck. I'm not sure if they were just trying to provide their customers with backup copies or not. "OEM" Windows OS discs have been floating around the computer world for a long time. They usually have some kind of stamp that says "to be sold only with a new computer" - or something like that. Again, I'm not sure of all the details in this case, but it might not be as bad as it sounds.
Quote from: Rico on January 05, 2012, 05:17:58 AM
One of the problems with selling PC's with Window's installed already is generally these days the customer doesn't get any physical copies of Windows on backup CD's/DVD. You can make your own backup (if you think of it) but most people don't do that. So if their hard drive and OS gets trashed they are kind of out of luck. I'm not sure if they were just trying to provide their customers with backup copies or not. "OEM" Windows OS discs have been floating around the computer world for a long time. They usually have some kind of stamp that says "to be sold only with a new computer" - or something like that. Again, I'm not sure of all the details in this case, but it might not be as bad as it sounds.
Yes it seems this was their intention, or at least that's what they're saying. It all stems from like you say, Microsoft doesn't provide the OS on disc for reinstallation / restore in pre-built pcs these days and the majority of people unless they are technically minded would be stuck as soon as their PC starts behaving oddly.
While I agree that these discs should be provided, at least in the "restore" format which would only work on the specific manufacturers PCs anyway, I can't see this working as a defence.
They may have had a chance with that argument if they were producing these discs and giving them away to their PC customers but they were SELLING them to their PC customers. What were they charging for? It doesn't cost £14.99 to produce those discs so they were charging for the added value contained on the discs which doesn't belong to them.
this is a problem that this has zero to do with Microsoft. It's the people that are building the computers that are responsible for getting the license for OEM discs from Microsoft. To cut costs, they stopped doing that. The companies did put in tools for the users to make their own backup discs and that's fine. The problem is that this company seems to be selling OEM discs for a profit without giving Microsoft their cut. I think that they KNOW full well what they were doing in selling those discs because each company has their own tools on their systems for restoring them now. Most have backup programs in addition to their recovery partitions.
Ignorance isn't going to cut it on this one.
Quote from: X on January 05, 2012, 06:02:28 AM
this is a problem that this has zero to do with Microsoft. It's the people that are building the computers that are responsible for getting the license for OEM discs from Microsoft. To cut costs, they stopped doing that. The companies did put in tools for the users to make their own backup discs and that's fine. The problem is that this company seems to be selling OEM discs for a profit without giving Microsoft their cut. I think that they KNOW full well what they were doing in selling those discs because each company has their own tools on their systems for restoring them now. Most have backup programs in addition to their recovery partitions.
Ignorance isn't going to cut it on this one.
Yeah you're right, it isn't that Microsoft stopped supplying the discs it's that the OEMs decided not to pay for them to be included. What Comet could have done is preached Microsoft directly and struck I deal to supply recovery discs to their customers instead of trying to make a quick buck ths way.
Well if they were charging for them then they're asking for whatever comes there way as a result.
I'm still pretty surprised, they've been around long enough (i.e. since before personal computers even existed) to know what's what in this area. They either went into this with their eyes open or they're employing some exceptionally naive people in decision making positions.
To me, I see it as a service. If someone has purchased a PC with a legal copy of Windows on it and doesn't want to take the time to make their own backup copy, then I see no reason to pay someone or some service for a backup copy. Now, if they were selling discs to people who didn't buy PC's, that's another matter. Another way Microsoft could stop a lot of this would be to make it easy to "Cloud Install" Windows once you are registered as a Genuine Windows user. Or some type of program to help people with a very real problem in their system. I can't tell you how many people I know who get frustrated after buying a PC and not having backup discs for it. Most people will never make them.
I agree and that was my first thought but I think having a factory-type manufacturing setup will play against that arguement if it goes to court.
Having someone in the shop make a recovery disk from the computer you actually purchased would have been much more defensible.
Quote from: Rico on January 05, 2012, 08:50:43 AM
To me, I see it as a service. If someone has purchased a PC with a legal copy of Windows on it and doesn't want to take the time to make their own backup copy, then I see no reason to pay someone or some service for a backup copy. Now, if they were selling discs to people who didn't buy PC's, that's another matter. Another way Microsoft could stop a lot of this would be to make it easy to "Cloud Install" Windows once you are registered as a Genuine Windows user. Or some type of program to help people with a very real problem in their system. I can't tell you how many people I know who get frustrated after buying a PC and not having backup discs for it. Most people will never make them.
I think an issue that will come up is that in the UK we don't have any legislation for fair use policy that allows the legal backup of copyrighted material as you do in the US.
Quote from: Rico on January 05, 2012, 08:50:43 AM
To me, I see it as a service. If someone has purchased a PC with a legal copy of Windows on it and doesn't want to take the time to make their own backup copy, then I see no reason to pay someone or some service for a backup copy. Now, if they were selling discs to people who didn't buy PC's, that's another matter. Another way Microsoft could stop a lot of this would be to make it easy to "Cloud Install" Windows once you are registered as a Genuine Windows user. Or some type of program to help people with a very real problem in their system. I can't tell you how many people I know who get frustrated after buying a PC and not having backup discs for it. Most people will never make them.
There's a huge difference between a system backup and a forged copy of windows. The key point is that they were selling these discs to anyone that came in looking for recovery discs. Basically, you could crash your computer and go their and pay 14.99 and get a recovery disc even if you didn't buy your computer there. They were selling windows illegally to anyone that had the money. Their blaming MS is kind of crappy because MS didn't decided to stop providing the discs. That's tantamount to blaming iPODs from coming with no music and charging 15 bucks to load it with anything then blaming Apple.
More info
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/jan/04/microsoft-sue-comet-windows-discs (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/jan/04/microsoft-sue-comet-windows-discs)
There are lines that they crossed.
Here's a quick example. Selling Preburned Restore Discs are a crime.
Charging someone to burn their recovery discs with the manufacturer's provided backup software is not a crime.
One is profiting off counterfeit goods and the other is being paid for a service that you can legally provide.
I think it became a crime when they had a warehouse pumping out the fake discs.
Quote from: X on January 05, 2012, 05:29:33 PM
More info
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/jan/04/microsoft-sue-comet-windows-discs (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/jan/04/microsoft-sue-comet-windows-discs)
There are lines that they crossed.
Here's a quick example. Selling Preburned Restore Discs are a crime.
Charging someone to burn their recovery discs with the manufacturer's provided backup software is not a crime.
One is profiting off counterfeit goods and the other is being paid for a service that you can legally provide.
I think it became a crime when they had a warehouse pumping out the fake discs.
Pretty much what I think.
Hmmm, perhaps I'd better go and buy a restore disk before they go under!
Chris, I've been mainly talking in general terms and not exactly about this particular case. I've gone to a lot of computer trade shows in the past where discs like this were for sale out in the open. Again, I think it might not be Microsoft's fault but they do have ways to stop this that in my view are easier. As long as people buy computers without backup discs this will continue to be a problem.
They should have backup discs in the pack really shouldn't they.
Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on January 06, 2012, 01:33:11 PM
They should have backup discs in the pack really shouldn't they.
Well yes but somebody has to pay for them. Microsoft doesn't have a problem supplying them if somebody pays. The manufacturers stopped paying for it so they weren't included. I think part of the reason for this is that people like PC World would rather you take out there care package so they can charge you £80 to remove a virus from your system by just sticking a disc in restoring your PC to factory settings.
Afaik Comet don't do this so maybe they genuinely thought they were providing a service by making these discs but as I said they should have tried to do a deal directly with Microsoft to supply these discs instead to pirating them.
PC World, urghh Dan, how could you say those words, oh i feel all giddy :p
I know! A horrible place only to be ventured into if the price is right and you know what you want. :)
Personally whenever I've bought a ready made PC the first thing I do is wipe the hard disc and install a fresh copy of the OS anyway!
Quote from: Rico on January 06, 2012, 06:08:43 AM
Chris, I've been mainly talking in general terms and not exactly about this particular case. I've gone to a lot of computer trade shows in the past where discs like this were for sale out in the open. Again, I think it might not be Microsoft's fault but they do have ways to stop this that in my view are easier. As long as people buy computers without backup discs this will continue to be a problem.
I understand what you are saying, but I just can't agree with it. PC makers have decided not to include recovery discs and have installed tools to allow for creating your own free of charge. Rather than just making the discs, people are buying illegal copies in which Microsoft is not making a penny of it.
If the folks at Comet were honestly thinking about their customers, they would have just given them away instead of turning a profit and not kicking some back to MS.
What I really don't get is how we are trying to justify being lazy. When you setup your PC, it has on the main page of most of them a button to click to start the burn process. All you need to do is click a button and then put in the discs.
If there is a demand for the disc, then the retailers should be talking to the manufacturers and asking them to start including the discs again and passing the cost to the customers.
I think MS is in the right here because this has nothing at all to do with their business practices. They provide the product and have a means to provide the recovery discs. If the people that are making the computers pass on that, the buck needs to stop with them and it's their mess to clean up. I also know what you're saying about trade shows, but it doesn't make it right or legal. Hell, I can point you to a million and one places that sell knock off designer clothing in retail shops. They make a killing on it and continue to do it because it's cheaper for them to cheat and hope they don't get caught. It's also money that the people that created it are being denied.
I know that you're an inventor, but if you owned the royalties rights of your products, how would it make you feel if someone else was using your tech without you seeing anything at all from it? Sure it might be an exclusive and patented process, but it's something people need and if your company isn't providing it for everyone, why get mad when someone else does?
The big picture here is that Comet failed to educate their customers and instead chose to take a easy road where they could reap easy profits. Mass production of the discs would seriously save on man hours of having to do it in the store for the customer or educating them on how to burn those disc.
They found a way to make a quick buck at the expense of someone that didn't really have a dog in the fight. I'm glad that they are being held accountable.