TREKS IN SCI-FI FORUM

I finally saw Voyager's series finally a few days ago. I don't think the finale was great. I think the biggest reason is because the crew finally made it to Earth and with the entire crew still on Voyager, the episode abruptly ended.

TNG's ending was not abrupt. We get to see Captain Picard joining the rest of the senior staff in a game of poker. DS9 had a really long ending where some lose ends were tied as most of the main characters took new directions in their lives. I really like the very last scene with Kira and Jake looking out the space station's porthole at all the stars and then the wormhole as it opens up.

Those were great endings unlike Voyager's. We didn't even really get to see Voyager majestically get on orbit around Earth. They simply came through that trans warp conduit, quickly destroyed the Borg ship, exchanged a few words with a Starfleet admiral and then the end. There were no family reunions, no celebrations. . .nothing.

I loved the finale.. I thought it did what it was suppose to do. This series was about a ship that was lost in the Delta Quadrant. In the end the ship makes it home, thus completing the story. Of course it would have been cool if they showed what happend to the crew afterwards but that wasn't the main story of this series. Plus we did get to see what happened in the alternate timeline with Voyager coming in over the Golden Gate Bridge. Also there are novels that continue the Voyager stories once they got home.

Yes Kenny, I really enjoyed it too.

I think when they are doing TV you have to trade certain things out because of the time involved.  I am glad they did all the cool special effects with the borg and such.  Now, what would have been way cool was if they had a TV movie about what happened to them all.

but, hey, I guess we can't have everything!

I have been watching the finale the last couple of nights while falling asleep.  Great show!

While the voyager finale was not all that great, it was still an action packed episode. it would have been nice to see more of the Borg armour. But at least it was better than the most terrible Trek ending ever. I am talking about Enterprise. We were let down in a big way, they knew this was the last incarnation for awhile, but they still used some over the hill overweight previous trek actors to turn the show into a "Dallas" type scenario, I am only surprised that we didn't see Troi or Riker in the shower. Totally unforgiveable and I for one will remain very peeed off at the makers for a very long time.

I liked the Voyager Finale, but I do agree with Pepperdude, in that it would have been nice for a couple extra minutes to see what happens to the crew after they arrive home. Like Kenny said, there are books that a person can read to follow their stories after the show ended.  I always find series finales to be bittersweet, as the finales are usually big, and close of story lines, but sad in that the shows I have been following have come to an end. That said, Enterprise Finale just left me bitter, no sweet there.

I liked the Voyager finale a great deal.  Yes,  I would've liked to see an extra scene resolving the fates of some characters.

We could've seen Tom meeting up with his dad, maybe a sentence or two telling us what'll happen to 7 and the Maquis crew, everyone greeting Reg, Starfleet commending Janeway on her triumph in completing the mission. 

It all would've been nice, but I think it's a great finale even without all that.  I don't think it rose to the level of "All Good Things", but I enjoyed it much more than the DS9 or ENT finales.

I was liking the finale until the very end. There was just not enough time left. I guess  sometimes--like Rick said--I can't have everything. . . Then again, Kenny made a great point about Voyager 's main plot line being about getting home, not what they were going to do after they got home. So I can see how the ending does still fit the entire series.

Jedijeff, I still haven't seen the Enterprise finale. It's doesn't sound that great but does it have any redeeming qualities?

None.

I thought the Enterprise Finale was good for a regular Trek episode but horrible for a Enterprise Finale. The second to last episode of Enterprise is what I consider the finale for Enterprise.

I find it fascinating how great the writing is in Trek.  I mean, think about it.  We care about the characters.  And after seven years, you really care about them. I think there is a lot of pressure on whoever is producing it to make it really good.  The Trek fan base is so diverse.  Everyone likes it for so many reasons, almost like a code of ethics.  You know?

I agree, Enterprise was kind of sad in the finale.  I was just sad that Trek in general was going off the air.  That was very hard for me.  I actually found myslef upset about it.  I got a kick out of the TREK LIFE cartoon.  I felt like Carl at the time.  hehehe.

(http://www.christrocks.com/forum/treklife.gif)

I watched the finale again.  There was some really neat moments -- dusting the Borg ships was at the top.

My favorite parts of the episode - Old Janeway telling the captain about the next 16 years, Chakotay/Seven (nice), Belana/Tom, Seven/Neelix, Old Janeway/Tuvok, Janeway/Tuvok.  Harry will always be Harry -- will he ever grow up ?

I thought this finale was good.  Yeah, it would of been nice to have a few moments to unite the Voyager crew with their loved ones on Earth, but it's hard to do it all.  It was an exciting episode and I was happy that they brought them home.

I liked it.  I'm kind of weird on the trek episodes I like.  I like the stuff that many of you don't. 

I hated the way TNG ended.  It felt like it was just another "reset button" episode.  To me it would have been even better to air clues or masks as the big finish!

DS9s ending was sad for me because I felt like everyone was graduating and going their own seprate ways.  But it was still really good.  I liked it.

I liked future janeway comming back to fight the Borg and I felt that it was cool to bring the ship back to Earth at the end.

Quote from: space_invader64 on May 27, 2007, 03:08:46 PM
To me it would have been even better to air clues or masks as the big finish!

Masks?  Masks?

QuoteI liked it.  I'm kind of weird on the trek episodes I like.  I like the stuff that many of you don't. 

You weren't kidding there, si64!  :)

Episodes like Masks, Sub Rosa and Genesis softened the blow of TNG airing, for me. 

IMO, TNG is the only modern Trek which fell off in quality during its final season.

Yes that's right.  I like the goofy stuff more than the episodes with deep meaning.  Masks is an episode that I thought was cool but other trek fans really hate it.  I like clues, justice, The Royale, Timescape, The Most Toys, Future Imperfect, QPid, The Battle, Skin of Evil, Conspiracy, Time Squared, Time's Arrow, Thine Own Self, Eye of the Beholder, Genesis, Rember Me, Tapestry, Rascles, The Chase, A Fistful of Datas, Cause and Effect, Imaginary Friend, The Next Phase, True-Q, A Matter of Time, and so on.

Rico, you should review some of these.  These, to me are the most memorable episodes of TNG.

That's not a bad list, si64.  Some are ones I think are goofy.  A couple are just bad, but there are quite a few episodes in there that I love.  The Most Toys is, to me, a very underrated episode.  It's from that time in the 3rd season when TNG started to hit its stride.  There's like 3 seasons straight there with barely a mis-step.  And I love the ending of that one with the phaser "accidentally" going off.

Future Imperfect is great fun.  Timescape is a good one.  Conspiracy, if only for its uniqueness, is a memorable episode.  The Next Phase holds great memories for me, both as a fun episode, and for the circumstances surrounding my initial viewing of it.   Cause and Effect?  Who doesn't like that one?  Clues is a good one, too.

Actually, I think our tastes are probably very similar, in that I like the fun ones and don't really want a big meaning.

What about The Gambit two-parter?

I loved "the most toys"  My wife laughs at me because I can watch that episode over and over again.  I just really liked it.

I really liked Gambit one and two also.  Very cool stuff.

Quote from: PepperDude on May 18, 2007, 11:08:01 PM
I finally saw Voyager's series finally a few days ago. I don't think the finale was great. I think the biggest reason is because the crew finally made it to Earth and with the entire crew still on Voyager, the episode abruptly ended.

I didn't think it ended abruptly.  They rode the Borg Sphere back to Earth's solar system, Starfleet attacked the Sphere, Voyager destroyed the Sphere from inside, flew out of the wreckage, and met the fleet of Starfleet ships.  Captain Janeway contacted Admiral Paris, and Tom went to sickbay to see his daughter.  Chakotay took the helm, Janeway ordered him to set a coarse for home, then the fleet escorts Voyager to Earth, fade to black.  How is this not a good ending?  ???

QuoteTNG's ending was not abrupt. We get to see Captain Picard joining the rest of the senior staff in a game of poker.

True, but TNG had a focus on drama where as VOY had a focus on action (thanks to UPN).

QuoteDS9 had a really long ending where some lose ends were tied as most of the main characters took new directions in their lives. I really like the very last scene with Kira and Jake looking out the space station's porthole at all the stars and then the wormhole as it opens up.

You can't expect VOY to end like DS9.  DS9 was a science-fiction soap opera where as VOY was an episodic sci-fi action show.  The only thing the finale necessitated was a return to Earth, and they did that.

QuoteThose were great endings unlike Voyager's.

Why were they better than VOY's finale?

QuoteWe didn't even really get to see Voyager majestically get on orbit around Earth. They simply came through that trans warp conduit, quickly destroyed the Borg ship, exchanged a few words with a Starfleet admiral and then the end.

Agreed.  I would have liked to see Voyager land with the crew climbing down the landing legs with Janeway looking up into the sky (and at the audience) as she quietly whispers, "We made it," then pull back to reveal the ship and crew, then fade to black.

QuoteThere were no family reunions, no celebrations. . .nothing.

This would be hollow as the only character left behind by the crew that we really got to know was Admiral Paris, and he's in the finale.  Ending with a reunion special would have been anticlimatic.  However, if the first half of the episode featured the return with the second episode focusing on the crew splitting up, that would be fine.  Still, what would the conflict be for that second half?  Even DS9 was smart enough to bring up that Pah-Wraith stuff so there would be a conflict.

A story without a conflict is boring.

To me, TNG had the best ending with Enterprise taking last place. Voyager was pretty good but DS9 was, i thought, better, I don't see Voyager as an action series though, I saw it as a character show with most episodes based on the ship. They relied on the Borg too much, and by the end of the run, Voyager had kicked their arses so often, that the Borg weren't scary anymore. At the beginning of TNG, they were terrifying even though they sound Swedish.

I didn't like Farpoint or All good things.  Both really bad episodes. 

Quote from: trekkygeek on June 29, 2007, 12:55:25 PM
Voyager was pretty good but DS9 was, i thought, better, I don't see Voyager as an action series though, I saw it as a character show with most episodes based on the ship. They relied on the Borg too much, and by the end of the run, Voyager had kicked their arses so often, that the Borg weren't scary anymore.

To be fair, DS9 featured the Dominion more than VOY featured the Borg, so I don't think they were overused.  Did they loose their edge?  Yes, but that will always happen when you learn more about a villain.  Also, Voyager didn't regularly kick Borg butt, they barely escaped each encounter.

Quote from: space_invader64 on June 29, 2007, 06:19:08 PM
I didn't like Farpoint or All good things.  Both really bad episodes. 

Thank you! It's because of "Farpoint" that I missed the first season of TNG. I came in on "Best Of Both Worlds". So glad I did.

"All Good Things" cancelled itself out. The last episode of "Voyager" felt a bit like that as well. However, while I really didn't like "Voyager", I'll have to admit that it's final episode is the best of all the "Trek" endings. But I don't believe that that's saying much. The problems with these shows is that as time went by, they became so self-indulgent that their series finales were more masturbation than dramatic wrap-up.

I think it would have been really cool if "Best Of Both Worlds" were the final TNG episode. Or something along those lines. Something originally cataclysmic and compelling with some sort of message (or meaning).

Quote from: Captain Jean-Luc Picard on June 29, 2007, 06:52:19 PM
Voyager was pretty good but DS9 was, i thought, better, I don't see Voyager as an action series though, I saw it as a character show with most episodes based on the ship. They relied on the Borg too much, and by the end of the run, Voyager had kicked their arses so often, that the Borg weren't scary anymore.

The Borg were way overused. They really should have ended at "Best Of Both Worlds". But I am grateful for "First Contact" (the movie). It's the best of the TNG films (and in the top 3 of best overall "Trek" movies). The failure of the "Voyager" producers to develop new and interesting villains caused them to try and re-create past glory.  To this day, the only "Voyager" episode that I can watch repeatedly is "Future's End". Not because it's great drama, but because it's an interesting set of story elements. The fact that the Voyager crew were overpowered by a "primitive". The chase/quest aspect was interesting as well as extraordinary events in familiar settings taking place. The danger of discovery was compelling also. Or was it simply that Sarah Silverman was so hot?

Quote from: trekkygeek on June 29, 2007, 12:55:25 PM
To be fair, DS9 featured the Dominion more than VOY featured the Borg, so I don't think they were overused.  Did they loose their edge?  Yes, but that will always happen when you learn more about a villain.  Also, Voyager didn't regularly kick Borg butt, they barely escaped each encounter.

It's funny. The whole idea of a long story arc came when the "Babylon 5" folks pitched the idea of a space station to Paramount and got rejected. "B5" did it much better. They just didn't have the advantage of a budget for sets.

The Dominion (more succintly, the J'hem H'darr) were defanged more than overused. Initially a wonderul concept, they were introduced as nigh invincible. Then the humans were able to even hold their own in hand-to-hand combat. It would have been really cool if The Dominion had taken over the quadrant, enslaved everyone, much like the Cardassians, but on a larger scale. It could have had the darkness of the DS9 mirror universe with a twist. Making a parallel with WWII underground resistance could have been really powerful. It would have really fulfilled the promise of DS9 being a darker and grittier "Trek". Instead, it came off as a costumed soap opera.

QuoteIt would have been really cool if The Dominion had taken over the quadrant, enslaved everyone, much like the Cardassians, but on a larger scale.

But then Voyager would've come home to an enslaved Alpha quadrant!

I think most Star Trek fans wouln't have liked such a story line. You're right about the J'hem H'darr being defanged though. The first time we saw one of them he stepped out of a force field and I was like "No WAY! The Federation is gonna get whooped."

Quote from: Darmok on June 29, 2007, 09:38:52 PM
The Borg were way overused. They really should have ended at "Best Of Both Worlds". But I am grateful for "First Contact" (the movie). It's the best of the TNG films (and in the top 3 of best overall "Trek" movies).

You wanted to see the Borg defeated after a mere 3 episodes?  Blah... where's the fun in that?  I find the Borg Collective far more scarier than a single Cube.  By the way, I agree that First Contact is the best TNG film, though Insurrection is my favorite.

QuoteThe failure of the "Voyager" producers to develop new and interesting villains caused them to try and re-create past glory.  To this day, the only "Voyager" episode that I can watch repeatedly is "Future's End". Not because it's great drama, but because it's an interesting set of story elements. The fact that the Voyager crew were overpowered by a "primitive". The chase/quest aspect was interesting as well as extraordinary events in familiar settings taking place. The danger of discovery was compelling also.

First off, the Voyager producers came and went as the series progressed.  Second, they did not fail to develope new and interesting villains.  Do you forget the Kazon, Vadiians, Hirogen, Species 8472, Malon, and Krenim?  The only villain that was borrowed from TNG for more than two or three episodes is the Borg.  This is because Voyager was heading on a path from Point A to Point B, so once a recurring alien was left behind, that was that.  After First Contact, they had all that Borg stuff left over, plus the Borg can fly across the galaxy easilly, so they had the perfect villain for the series: the Borg, featured in only six episode of TNG and one movie.  We knew so little about them, so it made sense to explore them just like TNG explored the Klingons and Romulans that were barely featured in TOS.

"Future's End, Parts I & II" are my favorite episodes from Season 3 for all the reasons you mentioned and more.

QuoteIt's funny. The whole idea of a long story arc came when the "Babylon 5" folks pitched the idea of a space station to Paramount and got rejected. "B5" did it much better. They just didn't have the advantage of a budget for sets.

I've heard the DS9 ripped off B5! argument before, and I just don't care, largely because this happens in Hollywood all the time.  The DS9/B5 situation is nothing special.  Anyway, I tried to watch both shows.  DS9 was fun where as B5 was dark, dull, and lifeless.  A TV show seems pointless without a sense of fun.

QuoteThe Dominion (more succintly, the J'hem H'darr) were defanged more than overused. Initially a wonderul concept, they were introduced as nigh invincible. Then the humans were able to even hold their own in hand-to-hand combat. It would have been really cool if The Dominion had taken over the quadrant, enslaved everyone, much like the Cardassians, but on a larger scale. It could have had the darkness of the DS9 mirror universe with a twist. Making a parallel with WWII underground resistance could have been really powerful. It would have really fulfilled the promise of DS9 being a darker and grittier "Trek". Instead, it came off as a costumed soap opera.

You've got to have the Human characters win a few engagements, otherwise you've written yourself into a corner with an undefeatable enemy.  Besides, I seem to remember the Federation getting the upper hand only because they realised they had to increase their numbers.  That ment more security officers and more starships.

I'm glad they didn't have the Dominion take over the Alpha Quadrant and enslave everyone.  That would have been depressing and killed my interest in the series.  This is Star Trek, not Star Wars.

I just love Future's end.  That is some of the best Trek!

"Freakasaurus"  Goliath Gulps....

great episodes.

The Year of Hell was really good too.

Quote
I've heard the DS9 ripped off B5! argument before, and I just don't care, largely because this happens in Hollywood all the time.  The DS9/B5 situation is nothing special.  Anyway, I tried to watch both shows.  DS9 was fun where as B5 was dark, dull, and lifeless.  A TV show seems pointless without a sense of fun.

Actually, this happens much less than you'd think in Hollywood. They don't just rip off each other's shows, it would be bad for business. Yes, they are both space stations. Yes, they are both about war. But they go about it in two different ways.

However, you should be careful characterizing B5 as dull and lifeless - it was one of the first shows to illustrate true change in characters/species/universes, and with the exception of the first half of season 5, was an amazingly well-told, high-brow, intelligent and very intense series. There were completely original aliens with in depth political situations; it tackled alcoholism; criminal rehabilitation; real human issues. In no way was that show dull and/or lifeless - in fact, I would put the writing for B5 up against most episodes of other scifi shows, and I bet it would do just fine.

But yes, I will give you dark. A show is not pointless without a sense of fun. Sometimes, adults like real politik with their wanton destruction.

Quote from: Captain Jean-Luc Picard on June 29, 2007, 11:16:59 PM
First off, the Voyager producers came and went as the series progressed.  Second, they did not fail to develope new and interesting villains.  Do you forget the Kazon, Vadiians, Hirogen, Species 8472, Malon, and Krenim?

Yes, and the only one interesting were the Krenim. At least there was some semblance of depth of character. The Kazon seemed too much like Klingon rip-offs, the Vadiians too B-movie-ish (I'm also feeling that way a little about Species 8472), the Hirogen were too one-dimensional and the Malon were slightly darker Ferengi.

Quote from: Captain Jean-Luc Picard on June 29, 2007, 11:16:59 PM
I've heard the DS9 ripped off B5! argument before, and I just don't care, largely because this happens in Hollywood all the time.  The DS9/B5 situation is nothing special.  Anyway, I tried to watch both shows.  DS9 was fun where as B5 was dark, dull, and lifeless.  A TV show seems pointless without a sense of fun.

Perhaps here we're talking a matter of taste. I don't think B5 reached its potential, but it did have more interesting characters. It's first season was a little flat, but they did pick up the pace. I thought the attempt at fun in DS9 came off a little goofy. With all of that Bajoran spirituality, I thought it very stiff. DS9 came off as a show that didn't know what it wanted to be, which is why we'll never see a movie based on that show. B5 suffered from lack of budget and fear of cancellation (which is why they wrapped up the story a little too quickly).

B5 had its humor, just not so much up front. G'Kar and Londo's tete-a-tetes were interesting. I'll always remember G'Kar in Garibaldi's quarters, upon seeing the picture of Daffy Duck and inquiring whether it was a representation of one of his (Garibalidi's) gods. Garibaldi's pause for thought and response were pretty funny.

Quote from: Captain Jean-Luc Picard on June 29, 2007, 11:16:59 PM
I'm glad they didn't have the Dominion take over the Alpha Quadrant and enslave everyone.  That would have been depressing and killed my interest in the series.  This is Star Trek, not Star Wars.

O.K., but consider this. The original premise of the show was to be darker and have more interpersonal conflict between the characters. This was a crew on The Frontier (much like the Old West). It follows that situations had to be more dangerous than normal. Why have a series that couldn't surpass the one that came before it?

Had the Dominion totally taken over the sector, there could have been interesting dramatic opportunities, as well as fulfillment of extraordinary danger. Cardassians could have been brought to the point of admitting how wrong they were to occupy Bejor. They could have been shown more by the Bejorans how to work together as an underground network. More effective stories could have been told to explore the depravity of slavery and bigotry. We could have had more purposeful cameos by TNG characters. Everyone could have grown  to put their differences aside for the common good. There's nothing like a common enemy to inspire cooperation (yes, they sort of touched upon that). Certain ironies could have been played up to add fun and humor to it all. Even in the worst of circumstances, a sense of humor is critical. Characters could have evolved their thinking to seeing why the Federation ethic is a good one. After all, societal invasion (as well as contamination) is what the Prime Directive is meant to protect against. The underdogs could have defeated their enemy more by brains, cunning. The series could have ended with all planets in that sector joining The Federation. How cool would that have been?

Quote from: PepperDude on June 29, 2007, 10:53:33 PM
But then Voyager would've come home to an enslaved Alpha quadrant!

If this were correct, then perhaps the Voyager crew could have had the solution and it all could have ended in a really good series of theatrical releases.

Quote from: PepperDude on June 29, 2007, 10:53:33 PM
I think most Star Trek fans wouln't have liked such a story line. You're right about the J'hem H'darr being defanged though. The first time we saw one of them he stepped out of a force field and I was like "No WAY! The Federation is gonna get whooped."

Perhaps discovering other species dominated by The Dominion could have been a twist on finding new life and new civilizations. However it could have gone down, let's just consider it a missed opportunity.

Quote from: Locutus on June 30, 2007, 01:18:01 AM
Actually, this happens much less than you'd think in Hollywood. They don't just rip off each other's shows, it would be bad for business. Yes, they are both space stations. Yes, they are both about war. But they go about it in two different ways.

However, you should be careful characterizing B5 as dull and lifeless - it was one of the first shows to illustrate true change in characters/species/universes, and with the exception of the first half of season 5, was an amazingly well-told, high-brow, intelligent and very intense series. There were completely original aliens with in depth political situations; it tackled alcoholism; criminal rehabilitation; real human issues. In no way was that show dull and/or lifeless - in fact, I would put the writing for B5 up against most episodes of other scifi shows, and I bet it would do just fine.

But yes, I will give you dark. A show is not pointless without a sense of fun. Sometimes, adults like real politik with their wanton destruction.

Well put. I'm actually glad that Paramount passed on B5. That way, it got to be B5. I'm also looking forward to the B5 movie.

Quote from: Locutus on June 30, 2007, 01:18:01 AM
Actually, this happens much less than you'd think in Hollywood. They don't just rip off each other's shows, it would be bad for business. Yes, they are both space stations. Yes, they are both about war. But they go about it in two different ways.

I ment that peoples ideas are stolen all the time, I didn't mean this exact situation.  On the other hand, the DS9/B5 fiasco could just be an amazing coincidence. :blink

QuoteHowever, you should be careful characterizing B5 as dull and lifeless - it was one of the first shows to illustrate true change in characters/species/universes, and with the exception of the first half of season 5, was an amazingly well-told, high-brow, intelligent and very intense series. There were completely original aliens with in depth political situations; it tackled alcoholism; criminal rehabilitation; real human issues. In no way was that show dull and/or lifeless - in fact, I would put the writing for B5 up against most episodes of other scifi shows, and I bet it would do just fine.

Those are the reasons why I didn't watch the show.  I enjoy dark, slow, gritty movies, but when I watch a TV show... I want to watch something FUN, not something that'll leave me feeling depressed at the end of the episode. ::)

Quote from: Darmok on June 30, 2007, 08:40:22 AM
Yes, and the only one interesting were the Krenim. At least there was some semblance of depth of character. The Kazon seemed too much like Klingon rip-offs, the Vadiians too B-movie-ish (I'm also feeling that way a little about Species 8472), the Hirogen were too one-dimensional and the Malon were slightly darker Ferengi.

Did you actually watch any of the Kazon episodes?  Their similarity to Klingons begins and ends with their appearance.  I'm glad we got a Klingon-looking alien, to be honest.  We always see aliens that resemble Human, why not an alien that resembles a familiar alien besides the Vulcans and Romulans?  The Vadiians and Species 8472 may seem like something out of a horror movie, but... that's the point.  As for the Hirogen being too one-dimension, again, this is intentional.  We learned that the Hirogen were so obsessed with hunting prey, it was leading to their own extinction.  Finally, the Malon... what do garbage ship people have to do with guys obsessed with prophet?

QuotePerhaps here we're talking a matter of taste. I don't think B5 reached its potential, but it did have more interesting characters. It's first season was a little flat, but they did pick up the pace. I thought the attempt at fun in DS9 came off a little goofy. With all of that Bajoran spirituality, I thought it very stiff. DS9 came off as a show that didn't know what it wanted to be, which is why we'll never see a movie based on that show. B5 suffered from lack of budget and fear of cancellation (which is why they wrapped up the story a little too quickly).

DS9 didn't know what it wanted to be?  It's called variety!  I thought all of the humor worked well except for the Ferengi-centric episodes.  As for the spirituallity, I agree... having a spiritual character is one thing, but they went a little too far with the Bajorans.  It felt like they were making fun of religion, becaus eapparantly all religious Bajorans are simpleton farmers. ::)

B5 gets a movie, because there's only one B5 show.  DS9 doesn't get a movie, because Paramount says, "Why make a DS9 movie when we can make a movie based on one of the other Star Trek shows?"  That's really the only reason why it won't be made into a movie.

QuoteB5 had its humor, just not so much up front. G'Kar and Londo's tete-a-tetes were interesting. I'll always remember G'Kar in Garibaldi's quarters, upon seeing the picture of Daffy Duck and inquiring whether it was a representation of one of his (Garibalidi's) gods. Garibaldi's pause for thought and response were pretty funny.

See, that was the problem with the show.  It was too alien.  That type of humor just falls flat to me.

QuoteO.K., but consider this. The original premise of the show was to be darker and have more interpersonal conflict between the characters. This was a crew on The Frontier (much like the Old West). It follows that situations had to be more dangerous than normal. Why have a series that couldn't surpass the one that came before it?

The show really wasn't that dark during the first two seasons.  As for interpersonal conflict, well... that's expected when half your station's crew are Bajorans and civilians. ;) We did see situations more dangerous than normal: a war spanning a quarter of the galaxy.  As for why the serious couldn't surpass TNG... the average viewer tuned into DS9, saw a space station, decided it's boring because they don't go anywhere, and thus tuned out.  Fortunately, sci-fi shows had a big audience in the 1990's, so DS9 was kept around by that audience.

QuoteHad the Dominion totally taken over the sector, there could have been interesting dramatic opportunities, as well as fulfillment of extraordinary danger. Cardassians could have been brought to the point of admitting how wrong they were to occupy Bejor. They could have been shown more by the Bejorans how to work together as an underground network. More effective stories could have been told to explore the depravity of slavery and bigotry. We could have had more purposeful cameos by TNG characters. Everyone could have grown  to put their differences aside for the common good. There's nothing like a common enemy to inspire cooperation (yes, they sort of touched upon that). Certain ironies could have been played up to add fun and humor to it all. Even in the worst of circumstances, a sense of humor is critical. Characters could have evolved their thinking to seeing why the Federation ethic is a good one. After all, societal invasion (as well as contamination) is what the Prime Directive is meant to protect against. The underdogs could have defeated their enemy more by brains, cunning. The series could have ended with all planets in that sector joining The Federation. How cool would that have been?

The show is called Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, not Star Trek: Dominion War, there's too many Dominion episodes as it is.  It'd also be entirely unrealistic to have everyone join the Federation, just because they lead the war to defeat the Dominion.  Did everyone join the USA when it ended World War II?

Quote from: Darmok on June 30, 2007, 08:47:04 AM

Quote from: PepperDude on June 29, 2007, 10:53:33 PM
But then Voyager would've come home to an enslaved Alpha quadrant!

If this were correct, then perhaps the Voyager crew could have had the solution and it all could have ended in a really good series of theatrical releases.

Meanwhile, the VOY audience would be asking, "Who the heck is the Dominion?"  The movies would flop, because Star Trek would be ripping off Star Wars.

Quote from: Captain Jean-Luc Picard on June 30, 2007, 09:39:53 AMDid you actually watch any of the Kazon episodes?  Their similarity to Klingons begins and ends with their appearance.  I'm glad we got a Klingon-looking alien, to be honest.  We always see aliens that resemble Human, why not an alien that resembles a familiar alien besides the Vulcans and Romulans?

Yes, and I grew tired of the Kazon arc very quickly. Especially the whole Ceska thing. The Kazon just came off as a biker gang to me. I don't have problems with non-human aliens. Just half-baked ones.

QuoteO.K., but consider this. The original premise of the show was to be darker and have more interpersonal conflict between the characters. This was a crew on The Frontier (much like the Old West). It follows that situations had to be more dangerous than normal. Why have a series that couldn't surpass the one that came before it?

Quote from: Captain Jean-Luc Picard on June 30, 2007, 09:39:53 AMThe show really wasn't that dark during the first two seasons.  As for interpersonal conflict, well... that's expected when half your station's crew are Bajorans and civilians. ;) We did see situations more dangerous than normal: a war spanning a quarter of the galaxy.  As for why the serious couldn't surpass TNG... the average viewer tuned into DS9, saw a space station, decided it's boring because they don't go anywhere, and thus tuned out.  Fortunately, sci-fi shows had a big audience in the 1990's, so DS9 was kept around by that audience.

My problem with the show is that it for me, it never lived up to the hype. The conflict came off a silly and eventually, any growth between characters was at the romance novel level. I believe that a show can be gripping, intelligent and fun at the same time. It just takes a little effort and cooperation. I believe that there were impediments to that goal within the staff structure of that show. The only character that was interesting to me as Jadzia Dax. The dynamic between Dax and Sisko (as well as the ironies) were the kind of thing that DS9 should have explored. Again, we seem to have a difference in taste.

One reason they added the Defiant was to bring back the sense of forward motion. There were a few runabout episodes as well.

Quote from: Captain Jean-Luc Picard on June 30, 2007, 09:39:53 AM
The show is called Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, not Star Trek: Dominion War, there's too many Dominion episodes as it is.

Yep. But then again, they were the most interesting enemy.

Quote from: Captain Jean-Luc Picard on June 30, 2007, 09:39:53 AM
It'd also be entirely unrealistic to have everyone join the Federation, just because they lead the war to defeat the Dominion.  Did everyone join the USA when it ended World War II?

In a way, yes. In a way, no. We certainly gained a lot of allies as well as immigrants. The United Nations became based in the US. We had a lot of love from the world. It's only recent events that have eroded that bond with our allies. We gained a new enemy in Russia after WWII, but it is not a perfect world.

Quote from: PepperDude on June 29, 2007, 10:53:33 PM
But then Voyager would've come home to an enslaved Alpha quadrant!

Quote from: Darmok on June 30, 2007, 08:47:04 AMIf this were correct, then perhaps the Voyager crew could have had the solution and it all could have ended in a really good series of theatrical releases.

Quote from: Captain Jean-Luc Picard on June 30, 2007, 09:39:53 AMMeanwhile, the VOY audience would be asking, "Who the heck is the Dominion?"  The movies would flop, because Star Trek would be ripping off Star Wars.

Well, "First Contact" did pretty well. Who outside of Trek knew about The Borg? Anyway, didn't DS9 end before Voyager? The Voyager crew returned after the Dominion War, right?

If it were done right, the Star Trek sensibilty would have transcended that of Star Wars. It would have had a more dramatic element as well as less fantastic. The human drama would have made the difference. Star Wars is about more of a mythical aspect while Star Trek is more about human possibility. The whole Federation would not have been subsumed, just that sector of space. The threat to the Federation could have been more interesting. Star Trek could have worked it more like Shakespeare. But then, this tangent is pure speculation anyway.

Quote from: Darmok on June 30, 2007, 10:09:48 AM
Yes, and I grew tired of the Kazon arc very quickly. Especially the whole Ceska thing. The Kazon just came off as a biker gang to me. I don't have problems with non-human aliens. Just half-baked ones.

I liked the Kazon arc, especially Seska.  I guess not everyone will like the same plots.

QuoteMy problem with the show is that it for me, it never lived up to the hype. The conflict came off a silly and eventually, any growth between characters was at the romance novel level. I believe that a show can be gripping, intelligent and fun at the same time. It just takes a little effort and cooperation. I believe that there were impediments to that goal within the staff structure of that show. The only character that was interesting to me as Jadzia Dax. The dynamic between Dax and Sisko (as well as the ironies) were the kind of thing that DS9 should have explored. Again, we seem to have a difference in taste.  One reason they added the Defiant was to bring back the sense of forward motion. There were a few runabout episodes as well.

First off, I don't care about hype.  I care about content.  There were some lame episodes here and there, but overall, DS9 was entertaining, and that's all I expect from a TV show.  It seems you prefer character-driven drama where as DS9 is a plot-driven show with a few character-driven episodes.  Personally, I prefer the plot-driven shows.  When the characters get more screen time then the plot, I get bored.  TV shows today spend too much time developing characters, and not enough time developing the plot, forcing a lot of episodes to end with unecessary cliffhangers.  I don't care what the character had for breakfast, get on with the story!  The Defiant was introduced, because they realised they needed a ship in addition to the space station.  Runabouts don't really count, because they served the same purpose shuttlecraft served on the other shows.

Quote

Quote from: Captain Jean-Luc Picard on June 30, 2007, 09:39:53 AMThe show is called Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, not Star Trek: Dominion War, there's too many Dominion episodes as it is.

Yep. But then again, they were the most interesting enemy.

Perhaps, but the show is not about the Dominion, it's about Space Station Deep Space Nine and it's crew.  The Dominion is merely there to provide conflict.  For Seasons 3-5, the Dominion is only there for five or so episodes per season.  They didn't become integral to the show until Season 6.

Quote

Quote from: Captain Jean-Luc Picard on June 30, 2007, 09:39:53 AMIt'd also be entirely unrealistic to have everyone join the Federation, just because they lead the war to defeat the Dominion.  Did everyone join the USA when it ended World War II?

In a way, yes. In a way, no. We certainly gained a lot of allies as well as immigrants. The United Nations became based in the US. We had a lot of love from the world. It's only recent events that have eroded that bond with our allies. We gained a new enemy in Russia after WWII, but it is not a perfect world.

I generally think of the UFP as the USA with each planet being comparable to a US state.  The UFP has allies just like the USA has allies, but we didn't get additional states just like the UFP didn't get additional members.

Quote

Quote from: PepperDude on June 29, 2007, 10:53:33 PM
But then Voyager would've come home to an enslaved Alpha quadrant!

Quote from: Darmok on June 30, 2007, 08:47:04 AMIf this were correct, then perhaps the Voyager crew could have had the solution and it all could have ended in a really good series of theatrical releases.

Quote from: Captain Jean-Luc Picard on June 30, 2007, 09:39:53 AMMeanwhile, the VOY audience would be asking, "Who the heck is the Dominion?"  The movies would flop, because Star Trek would be ripping off Star Wars.

Well, "First Contact" did pretty well. Who outside of Trek knew about The Borg? Anyway, didn't DS9 end before Voyager? The Voyager crew returned after the Dominion War, right?

If it were done right, the Star Trek sensibilty would have transcended that of Star Wars. It would have had a more dramatic element as well as less fantastic. The human drama would have made the difference. Star Wars is about more of a mythical aspect while Star Trek is more about human possibility. The whole Federation would not have been subsumed, just that sector of space. The threat to the Federation could have been more interesting. Star Trek could have worked it more like Shakespeare. But then, this tangent is pure speculation anyway.

First Contact did well, because it didn't require you to know who the Borg were.  All you had to know was that the Borg were evil cyborgs from the TV show, and Picard fills you in on everything else.  It's also not a war movie, but rather an invasion story.

Yes, DS9 ended two years before VOY ended.  Yes, Voyager returned to Earth in the VOY finale, two years after the Dominion War ended.

Star Trek is about an optimistic future, not war.  If you do a war movie, the casual movie goer is going to say it ripped off Star Wars and probably pass on seeing it.  I would pass, too, because I have zero interest in a Star Trek war movie.  Space battles are OK, because they're more personal and have stakes directly tied to the characters.

The Kazon were the dude's from The Road Warrior in space!

I do like plot-driven shows as well. Even character driven productions can get bogged down in self-indulgence. TNG suffered from that. I didn't need to see Dr. Crusher doing a soft-shoe routine. That stuff sometimes had it's place (like Data playing violin with his mother). I'd prefer a good balance between plot and character. Relationships are what make Star Trek stand out from other properties.

Give me stories like

"The Abyss"
"Aliens"
"The Empire Strikes Back"
"Raiders of the Lost Ark"
"The Day The Earth Stood Still"
"Yesterday's Enterprise"
"Darmok"
"The Best of Both Worlds"
"Space Seed"
"The Wrath of Khan"
"The Ultimate Computer"
"Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"
"Amok Time"
"Batman Begins"
"A Clockwork Orange"
"The Incredibles"

Quote from: Bryancd on June 30, 2007, 11:45:48 AM
The Kazon were the dude's from The Road Warrior in space!

OMG, that's funny! I laughed so hard I almost farted.

I always laughed at the Kazon's hair, it was so bad!  It looked like they had fallen asleep on the couch several nights in a row and then someone hairsprayed them with aqua net.  (the extreme hold style)

That and I always thought that a race of warriors that kicked butt so much and had big cool ships could surely make water somehow.

I don't know, they were my least favorite aliens. 

Again though, it shows how much Paramount messed up. They had this amazing idea of sending a ship 75,000 light years away, the series to follow their journey and adventures. But all they could come up with was rubbish enemies in the form of The Kazon, too many lacklustre episodes and Neelix. A great opportunity wasted.

Talk about self indulgence, how about Vic frackin Fountaine in DS9! OK, I get it, B&B love the rate pack! They kept going back to those bottle shows and it really became tedious. That joke was good once, maybe twice. Same thing with Seven on VOY, she featured EXTREMELY heavily in many episodes. OK, I get it, she has big cans!

Okay, so i'll give you the fact that they used Vic Fontaine too much. But would you agree that DS9 was far more in-depth and rewarding than VOY? and that the the finale of DS9 wrapped things off so much better than VOY?

Wow... so much Voyager hating going on.. I for one loved it.. it's right up there with TNG and DS9 was a close second. But everyone has there opinions.

Voyager was great.  I loved it.  Very cool.

The Kazon were goofy, but hey, look at the Ferangies.  They were goofy too... butt heads!  :)

Voyager was most like TNG to me, and I love TNG the most.

Oh don't get me wrong. I love Voyager but am just saying that I didn't love it as much as TNG or Voy. Its still Trek and i enjoy watching the odd episode, just not as often as TNG

Bryancd, you're right about Seven but I still don't mind seeing her onscreen.   ;D

Quote from: trekkygeek on June 30, 2007, 02:43:15 PM
Okay, so i'll give you the fact that they used Vic Fontaine too much. But would you agree that DS9 was far more in-depth and rewarding than VOY? and that the the finale of DS9 wrapped things off so much better than VOY?

Oh, don't get me wrong, Tim, I thought DS9 was terrific and a real departure for ST. It's almost a shame they felt the need to bring in the Defiant to get them off the station more, I always thought that was a cop out. But DS9 was so interesting and different.
Kenny, I love VOY because it Trek back at it's roots. It's fun and exciting, just what we needed after the gravitas of DS9.
Oh, and PepperDude, not that there's anything wrong with that! ;)

Quote from: moyer777 on June 30, 2007, 02:16:41 PM
That and I always thought that a race of warriors that kicked butt so much and had big cool ships could surely make water somehow.

The Kazon were not warriors, they were thugs.  For example, their ships are not even their own, they were stolen from the Trabe who had previously enslaved the Kazon.  If someone gave you the starship Voyager, and then asked you to take the ship up into space and go to warp, would you be able to?  You'd be lucky if you find the light switch. :laugh:

Quote from: trekkygeek on June 30, 2007, 02:28:12 PM
Again though, it shows how much Paramount messed up. They had this amazing idea of sending a ship 75,000 light years away, the series to follow their journey and adventures. But all they could come up with was rubbish enemies in the form of The Kazon, too many lacklustre episodes and Neelix. A great opportunity wasted.

I happen to like most of the enemies, especially the Kazon.  I also liked Neelix, though he got a little goofy at times.  What was so bad about Neelix?

Quote from: Bryancd on June 30, 2007, 02:35:35 PM
They kept going back to those bottle shows and it really became tedious.

Do you mean stand-alone episodes?

QuoteSame thing with Seven on VOY, she featured EXTREMELY heavily in many episodes. OK, I get it, she has big cans!

She was featured prominately, because she had a tragic backstory which made her fun to write for.  You should try to look past Jeri's breasts and see the rich and tragic character that is Seven of Nine.

Quote from: trekkygeek on June 30, 2007, 02:43:15 PM
would you agree that DS9 was far more in-depth and rewarding than VOY? and that the the finale of DS9 wrapped things off so much better than VOY?

I agree that DS9 is more in-depth and rewarding than VOY, but I think VOY had the better finale.  DS9's finale was about ending the war and saying goodbye.  VOY's finale was about getting home.  The latter story was more exciting.

Quote from: Bryancd on June 30, 2007, 04:06:58 PM
I thought DS9 was terrific and a real departure for ST. It's almost a shame they felt the need to bring in the Defiant to get them off the station more, I always thought that was a cop out. But DS9 was so interesting and different.

The Defiant, or some kind of starship, was necessary.  Without it, the show would have been cancelled.  It needed to go somewhere to give the average TV viewer a reason to watch, because most people don't care who is visiting DS9 this week.

QuoteKenny, I love VOY because it Trek back at it's roots. It's fun and exciting, just what we needed after the gravitas of DS9.

VOY was indeed a nice contrast to DS9.  DS9 featured a space station set in familiar territory with recurring characters where as VOY featured a starship constantly going somewhere new, constantly meeting someone new.

Quote from: Bryancd on June 30, 2007, 02:35:35 PM
Talk about self indulgence, how about Vic frackin Fountaine in DS9! OK, I get it, B&B love the rate pack! They kept going back to those bottle shows and it really became tedious. That joke was good once, maybe twice. Same thing with Seven on VOY, she featured EXTREMELY heavily in many episodes. OK, I get it, she has big cans!

There was way too much of that kind of stuff on those shows. The Vic Fontaine thing had me rolling my eyes. I don't recall that I ever watched more than one full episode with him in it. For a franchise with the tagline, "To boldly go...", they sure did like to go retro a bit too much. In the case of 7 of 9, I viewed that as a crass and desparate attempt. Sure she looked great and part of the Trek credo is to showcase sexuality, but come on. I for one am drawn to science fiction to have people who think inspire me to think (with my mind, not my member).

Yes, there was a tragic aspect to 7 of 9, but somehow, I didn't care. I eventually did not care about any Voyager character. They lost me with the "tragic character" thing when they kept doing the "beat down" with Worf through DS9. There also seemed as though they were making some kind of veiled racial statement with pairing Worf with another character played by a white actress.

CJLP, I would definitely agree that DS9 had more going for it than Voyager. However, I still consider it a step down from TNG and TOS. I was hopeful though. The DS9 pilot was much stronger than TNG's, quasi-spiritual stuff notwithstanding.