TREKS IN SCI-FI FORUM

I think they say there are two things you should never talk about in a group, Politics and Religion. Well I figure this group is made up of some very level headed and mature folks and I'm interested in hearing who everyone is going to vote for?

So here is the question.. if you live in the United States and you are going to vote (there should be no reason not to vote if you are of age) Who are you going to vote for to be our next President and Why??

Let's try and keep this civil as everyone has there opinions. If it gets too heated or mean I'll just delete the thread...  :vampire

This could get touchy. Don't throw things at me...I am a Registered Republican and I am not sure who I'm voting for—I'm not pleased with any of the candidates, Republican or Democrat.

I really don't want to debate as I'm very, very, very weary of politics and political bickering from both conservatives and liberals. Of course, I'm speaking to my fellow countrymen here, but we are all Americans. I wish we could stop calling each other out because we disagree. That being said, I believe we need to remain diligent as a country. Whether we like it or not there are people who hate us and will not stop trying to find a way to hurt us...no matter who's in power. They don't care if we're Republican, Democrat, Independent, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jews, Klingons, Ferengis or Blue Milk Drinkers. And, I think many of the candidates are just telling us what they think we want to hear so they can get elected... many of them are crooked and I wouldn't trust them with my purse. I don't think they are very serious about keeping us safe.

Politics stinks... I hate it... I wish we could just get an honest leader who has the strength to say "no" to the corruption of Washington and the World and do right by our country. As Forest Gump would say "that's all I have to say 'bout that."

That's so funny, I have been thinking about staring a thread about the elections as I too felt we could have a very civil discourse in our little community here. I'm glad to see this thread posted by one of the Moderators.

Anyhoo, I am also a Republican, a economic conservative with a much more moderate social view. I actually identify more with the Libertarian Party but they have been so marginalized as to be ineffective. I'm a big states rights guy and often point out that our nation was founded on the ideals of a Republic which have been lost in big government. Of all the Republican's I like Ron Paul the most for his views but he lacks the presence to lead. I think McCain is very principled and I have a lot of respect for his years of service to our country but worry about his age. I don't trust Romney as far as I could throw him and Huckabee is a little too church vs. state. I worked in NYC during the Rudy years and was in mid town on 9/11, so I saw first hand what he did during those awful days. having said that, I just don't know if he is the right man for the job. So for now  I am split between Rudy and McCain in my support.

I think the Democratic race is a real barn burnner. I think they will eventually nominate Hillary, who I think is a political opportunist but the same could be said for all of them. She just rubs me the wrong way ever since her initial foray into health care. Not matter who the Republican's nominate, I don't think any of them can beat her, so she will be the next President of the United States.

I was surprised to hear on a national news program this morning that U.S. citizens can vote from outside our country's boarders (not just the deployed troops and military stationed overseas).
This election could become mired in lawsuits again before it's done.

I too am a conservative Republican.

As the politicians like to say, no comment.

I was a Republican for like 10 years and decided to switch just to see what's up.

I detest Romney because I live in Boston and when I see him talk, I hear the lies he spews and just don't like him.

I don't like Clinton either because I can't trust her for some reason.

McCain and Obama are the two that I like the most.

I'm voting for Picard and Riker.

:)

I don't know who to vote for yet, like Jen said, most politicians are so corrupt that it is pointless. 

So, I will research the issues and where they stand on them, then pray about it when we have both of the candidates picked. 

Either way, I hope the American people make the best out of their lives and help others, regardless of who is president.

my two cents.

Thanks everyone for keeping this civil.. I knew we could.

I am, as most would guess a registered Democrat. Though I don't agree with all Democrat policies and I do like some of the Republican polices. I think I have a unique prospective since I think I'm the only "gay" person on the forums, at least openly :) When I look at a candidate I have to weight in on there take on the "gay" issue. Most Republicans are anti-gay to some degree. Be it there own beliefs or those of their party. I could never vote for a Republican for that reason.

Immigration is another big part of my life since my partner is from Austria and since they won't allow me to sponsor him since we legally can't get married we deal with his immigration status everyday worried that he will be deported at any moment. It's not the way I wanted to spend our lives together but for now it's the best we can do.

Of course I look at the big picture when voting, but for me when I pick a candidate I think about the things that will effect me the most. I'm currently stuck between Clinton and Obama I agree with both on a lot of there policies, I'd be happy with either one but to be honest we need to find one that will beat the Republican candidate and I think Clinton has a better chance then Obama.

I personally would like to see a viable third party candidate come forward because I think this is actually the first time in history that a third party could actually win.

On the Republican side I cannot honestly say I like any of the candidates.

On the Democratic side I absolutely cannot stand Hillery. She's much too scary for me and would be an unstable influence in the office. I do think that it's high time for a woman in high office but I just don't think she is the one. Obama seems like a nice enough man. I do not agree with all of his politics but he would be a better choice than Hillary. Unfortunately it seems that Edwards does not have a chance because he would get my vote if he did.

So...If it comes down to a race with Hillary as the Dem's choice I will vote for anyone before I would vote for her.

Kevin

I'm going to just say this, I have issues with McCain and I think he rubbed Republicans the wrong way with his anti-republican ideas. 

Now that I've said that. 

I'm hopefully going to get my right to vote set-up soon.  Even though I declare myself Republican, I refuse to align myself with any party.  I think that both parties have lost their ways and both are corrupt.  No offense to present party of course.  Both are just fighting amongst each-other and getting nothing done.  Not to mention that neither party has kept any of their promises. 

I know this seems like a rather harsh view, but I've seen nothing but fighting between the parties.  And its hurting us more than helping. 

As for candidates.  I'm going to say that, to be honest, even if Clinton is voted from the primaries as the main candidate, she WILL lose the election.  (Unless the Republican one is incredibly bad).  She is just too polarized for people to accept.  Now, I'm also saying this lightly, I don't think the USA is ready for a woman president.  Especially since the people of the USA do not think that reelecting the same family back into power is a good idea.  (I.E. The Bush Family).  As for Obama, I'm sorry, but I cannot respect him as I've seen him do things that make me sad.  Such as not saluting the USA flag or respecting the Pledge of Allegiance.  That above all else makes me never want to respect him as a US possible leader.  As a typical person, I can respect his judgement and his free will.  But if he is to be the next leader, he has to be respectful of the US ways.
The republicans I think have a chance of being reelected since the democrats don't really offer much cept Hillary and Obama and neither are very hopeful. 

King

P.S. remember, I say this as opinion.  I won't ignore you or say bad things or think that your opinion doesn't count.  I'm just stating my own, not to step on other people. 

Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on January 21, 2008, 02:29:41 PM
I'm the only "gay" person on the forums, at least openly :) 

I am still laughing from that one!!!  :roflmao

Voting for the best man for the job

I am a hardcore Republican and want McCain. I think he has a nice track record and also tells it like it is. He is know for pissing people off instead of going with the flow. I am not really a Romney fan as I do not like his tactics attacking Hucabee.

Kenny, I do have to say one thing and take it for what it is worth being I am a Republican and all. I think there is a general mis-conception that most Republicans are anti-gay, which I do not think is quiet accurate. It is more accurate imo to say the Republicans are anti-gay marriage. I think there is a huge difference in this as saying that Republicans are anti-gay really places a "scarlet letter" around our necks which I think is unfounded. I hope this comment does not offend you and I really do not want to get into a discussion on why the Republicans don't think gay's should marry. That is not my intention of this comment. It was mearly an attempt to make sure that there is a distinction made between anti-gay and anti-gay marriage.

I am also a hardcore fiscal Republican and I can't stand the Clinton ideas on the economy nor do I like Bush's stimulus package. Both are way to short-sighted. We need to focus on the long-term and ignore the media pushing ( talking ) us into a recession.

Yes, Bush has been the worst fiscal Republican of all time. He spends like a drunken sailor on shore leave.

Quote from: Kinglinksr on January 21, 2008, 03:09:52 PM
Such as not saluting the USA flag or respecting the Pledge of Allegiance. 

I actually haven't heard this yet. When did he do that? Also, why would he salute the flag when he's not military? I think I might be missing something, so I'm just looking for some clarity.

Quote from: Blackride on January 21, 2008, 03:20:46 PM
I am a hardcore Republican and want McCain. I think he has a nice track record and also tells it like it is. He is know for pissing people off instead of going with the flow. I am not really a Romney fan as I do not like his tactics attacking Hucabee.

Kenny, I do have to say one thing and take it for what it is worth being I am a Republican and all. I think there is a general mis-conception that most Republicans are anti-gay, which I do not think is quiet accurate. It is more accurate imo to say the Republicans are anti-gay marriage. I think there is a huge difference in this as saying that Republicans are anti-gay really places a "scarlet letter" around our necks which I think is unfounded. I hope this comment does not offend you and I really do not want to get into a discussion on why the Republicans don't think gay's should marry. That is not my intention of this comment. It was mearly an attempt to make sure that there is a distinction made between anti-gay and anti-gay marriage.

I am also a hardcore fiscal Republican and I can't stand the Clinton ideas on the economy nor do I like Bush's stimulus package. Both are way to short-sighted. We need to focus on the long-term and ignore the media pushing ( talking ) us into a recession.

All I'm saying, is that I have to agree with this.  There is a difference in what we don't want.  I'm also saying, this is not the topic of discussion nor do we need one. 

Quote from: Bryancd on January 21, 2008, 03:23:36 PM
Yes, Bush has been the worst fiscal Republican of all time. He spends like a drunken sailor on shore leave.

Sadly, I have to agree with you.  He was semi-good to good in his first term.  His second went from good to absolutely terrible. 

King

Quote from: Blackride on January 21, 2008, 03:20:46 PM
Kenny, I do have to say one thing and take it for what it is worth being I am a Republican and all. I think there is a general mis-conception that most Republicans are anti-gay, which I do not think is quiet accurate. It is more accurate imo to say the Republicans are anti-gay marriage. I think there is a huge difference in this as saying that Republicans are anti-gay really places a "scarlet letter" around our necks which I think is unfounded. I hope this comment does not offend you and I really do not want to get into a discussion on why the Republicans don't think gay's should marry. That is not my intention of this comment. It was mearly an attempt to make sure that there is a distinction made between anti-gay and anti-gay marriage.

When I said Republicans I didn't mean the people in general, I meant the candidates. But with that said you have to understand anti-gay and anti-gay marriage are the same in my eyes.

Quote from: Just X on January 21, 2008, 03:25:23 PM

Quote from: Kinglinksr on January 21, 2008, 03:09:52 PM
Such as not saluting the USA flag or respecting the Pledge of Allegiance. 

I actually haven't heard this yet. When did he do that? Also, why would he salute the flag when he's not military? I think I might be missing something, so I'm just looking for some clarity.

Its been about a month since this happened, but it happened.  Here is the email I got. 

King

Senator Barack Obama, Governor Bill Richardson, Senator Hillary Clinton and Ruth Harkin stand during the national anthem.
Barack Hussein Obama's photo (that's his real name)......the article said he REFUSED TO NOT ONLY PUT HIS HAND ON HIS HEART DURING THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE, BUT REFUSED TO SAY THE PLEDGE.....how in the hell can a man like this expect to be our next Commander-in-Chief????

Remember, after my name, that is the EXACT quote I got in the email.  Not me talking.

King

Yes you got it from an email?? Is there a source for this?? Or just some random email?

Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on January 21, 2008, 03:32:22 PM
Yes you got it from an email?? Is there a source for this?? Or just some random email?

There is a source, just let me find it....

King

Its from an article on CNN.com.  Sadly, I lost the other email in a purge of my emails but I wrote down the name of the company in my Word Note Software. 

Also, if you don't believe that, its just a little hard to think that this picture is fake.  I will accept that it could be. But as it was the only email I received of its kind (and trust me I get a lot of stuff) I'm somewhat inclined to believe its true.  However, I'll accept that the article could have been false and that I'm in the wrong.

King

I didn't say that you were wrong.. just wanted to know the source. Thanks

Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on January 21, 2008, 03:40:06 PM
I didn't say that you were wrong.. just wanted to know the source. Thanks

No problem.  Thats what I'm here for.....sorta

King

I wouldn't pay any creed to that. It's obviously an attempt to slander Obama and to bring up his middle name is just an effort to tie his identity to the terror that someone else with the name had.

It's an obvious attack tactic ...

Also did anyone else notice that noone is looking at the flag? Aren't you supposed to face the flag during the pledge?

If anything it shows that none of them know what to do.

Well I'm one of those who lives in the U.S. but can't vote because I'm not a U.S. citizen. At least not yet. Though officially I'm not a citizen, I consider myself an American. I've been here most of life since childhood and cannot imagine going back to and living in Mexico. I simply would not belong or fit in.  I'm going to apply for my American citizenship soon but until I am accepted to become a citizen (I hope I am accepted), I have to stand in the sidelines and watch the primaries and presidential election unfold.

If I could vote, I would most probably vote Republican. Not that I love any of the candidates. Frankly, not one of them is my (or most Republicans') ideal candidate. I would like a real conservative candidate but one who is not socially conservative. Rudy kinda fits that description best.

However, nobody from either party is seriously addressing the issue of energy independence. I believe that is the number one security issue for the nation. But nobody's seriously proposing drastic measures in order for the U.S. to become energy independent. If we didn't have to depend on countries like Iran, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia and Iraq for oil, we wouldn't have to meddle or get as involved with those countries. I can't stand having to give the Saudis and Iranians some of my money when they really don't care about us. Why should the U.S. continue to put itself in a precarious position where it has to depend on an unstable area of the world for energy? Someone needs to propose a serious, workable plan that will take America to energy independence within the next 20 years. It can be done we just have to be willing to make a few sacrifices. . .

But I digress. When I become a citizen I'll vote for whomever seriously proposes energy independence no matter what party the candidate belongs to.

Yes it is true that Obama refused to place his hand over his heart during the Star Spangled Banner. Here is a video that comes from ABC where the picture above came from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxfvxKBXRM4&eurl=http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/barack-obama-refused-to-say-the-pledge-of-allegiance-youve-been-played-for-

Kevin

I swear I heard that rendition on SNL! Still it's funny that none of them appear to be paying attention to the flag. that's just an odd clip that doesn't do any of the canidates any favors.

Who's to say that there isn't another flag that they are saying the pledge too. It is a photo op you would want the candidate to be facing forward.

Regardless of where is hand is, I think Obama is a very dynamic guy but unelectable, not because of his race but lack of true substance. He takes about change but doesn't have a lot of substance behind that and he is very green. That's why i think Hilary will be the nominee and again, I don't see McCain beating her, unfortunately for me and what I would prefer.

Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on January 21, 2008, 04:16:07 PM
Who's to say that there isn't another flag that they are saying the pledge too. It is a photo op you would want the candidate to be facing forward.

This is true, but some of the them seem to be changing were they are looking.

The first group with obama and clinton ... Richardson and Obama seem to be looking at the same thing. Clinton seems to be looking around and the other side of the stage has the people looking at the flag on the stage and ignoring the photo op.

Wow I feel like an idiot. That's the Star Spangled Banner ... that's not the pledge.

Nice catch X.. that's very true. So no hand on heart is required :)

Quote from: Bryancd on January 21, 2008, 04:17:41 PM
Regardless of where is hand is, I think Obama is a very dynamic guy but unelectable, not because of his race but lack of true substance. He takes about change but doesn't have a lot of substance behind that and he is very green. That's why i think Hilary will be the nominee and again, I don't see McCain beating her, unfortunately for me and what I would prefer.

My problem right now is I do not know what the Democrats stand for. I would not vote for one but at the same time I am not sure what they are standing for. All I am hearing is Obama and Hillary going back and forth and little about the issues. Obama seems very good at getting people involved but I am not sure if that's due to his great speaking or his stance on issues. If you put a gun to my head and said choose a Democrat I would have to say Obama due to the simple fact that I did not like what Bill did for the presidency and I am not really in favor of Edwards who seems like a snake waiting to attack...

Quote from: Bryancd on January 21, 2008, 04:17:41 PM
Regardless of where is hand is, I think Obama is a very dynamic guy but unelectable, not because of his race but lack of true substance. He takes about change but doesn't have a lot of substance behind that and he is very green. That's why i think Hilary will be the nominee and again, I don't see McCain beating her, unfortunately for me and what I would prefer.

After reading some of these further comments I did a quick search regarding Obama's American Flag issues:
Why he doesn't where the pin -
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=3690000
and
Is it required to acknowledge the flag -
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp

hope this helps

Thanks Dave and that's like I said. All of them are in the wrong if they are facing the singer and not the flag.

...My tongue is starting to bleed from me biting it so hard...

I think I'm going to have to avoid this thread...

so far everyone has been civil.. you can express your views without being mean. Believe me.. I don't agree with almost any on this thread.. but they believe what they believe.

Quote from: Ktrek on January 21, 2008, 03:01:22 PM
I do think that it's high time for a woman in high office but I just don't think she is the one.
So...If it comes down to a race with Hillary as the Dem's choice I will vote for anyone before I would vote for her.

Kevin

I am tired of pundants saying that women will vote for Hillary because she's a woman. NO... I will vote for the person who I think is the best choice...  I don't make my choices based on sex or race. Personally, I don't like Hillary either but it isn't because she's a Dem. Actually, I rather like Joseph Lieberman. If he ran for president, I would consider him.

As for whether America is ready for a woman to be president.... I REALLY disagree with King. I think that we are... if we weren't Hillary wouldn't be doing as well in the polls as she is. I just hope our first woman president isn't her.

Quote from: moyer777 on January 21, 2008, 02:07:49 PM
I'm voting for Picard and Riker.

:)

:D Awesome Moyer...

I however have decided that I'm voting for Data. At least he's honest....and... he's really, really, really strong.  ;)

Hehehe I haven't voiced my exact views for a reason. I picked a Dem and a Repub as my two choices to avoid the conflict. I do however like to debate.

I also want to agree with Kenny on the "gay" issues. I personally (wow breaking my own rules) think that neither party fully promotes gay rights and only pander to the gay community on a state or city level and then once in position quickly ignore the promises that they made.

In a national setting they tend to sacrifice the gay agenda because they feel that the loss of votes can be offset by the votes that they think they can get from the conservatives or certain religious factions.

I'll also go on the record to say that in this country, no constitution should be rewritten to deny anyone any rights.

Since I'm disclosing here are my very controversial views:

Pro Death Penality
Pro Choice but only under the condition that if a woman can have an abortion to end a pregnancy, potential fathers should have the same right to opt out of a potential pregnancy and not subject to fincial burdens because of someone else's choice.
Pro Marriage - Any sort of marriage between two or more lifeforms of the same species. I don't think that people should get extra benefits for being married, but the country is set up to reward hetero married couples with as many children as they can spit out.
Pro green technology, but only if it makes real sense. Biofuel, while a great idea, has been raising the price of meat because the demand and price of feed grade corn is increasing with the rise of demand for biofuels made of corn.
Pro Space exploration
I think that the legal age to drink shouldn't be 3 years after you have a right to vote or 5 years after you start legally driving. I think too many people make the mistake of drinking and driving because they are not completely unaware of the affects of their drinking.

The key to be American, is to discuss something no matter how much it boils your blood and walk away understanding everyone has their opinion. Only from true open discussion can we learn from eachother and truly gain an understanding of people that are different from ourselves.

Oh I forgot to add that I'm against the min wage. It seems to me that the only thing it does is change the value of the dollar and make things more expensive and thus not as effective as the tool that it is suposed to be.

Just X - There are social reasons that the goverment wants people to have more and more kids. If you look at countries like Italy and France where people are not having as many children as the rest of the world they are worried. Check these out for fun:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9404E2D71539E733A2575AC2A96E9C946897D6CF&oref=slogin
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/03/news/birth.php


I am NOT trying to change your opinion. Just sharing some articles on the point you made.

Quote from: Jen on January 21, 2008, 06:59:12 PM

Quote from: Ktrek on January 21, 2008, 03:01:22 PM
I do think that it's high time for a woman in high office but I just don't think she is the one.
So...If it comes down to a race with Hillary as the Dem's choice I will vote for anyone before I would vote for her.

Kevin

I am tired of pundants saying that women will vote for Hillary because she's a woman. NO... I will vote for the person who I think is the best choice...  I don't make my choices based on sex or race. Personally, I don't like Hillary either but it isn't because she's a Dem. Actually, I rather like Joseph Lieberman. If he ran for president, I would consider him.

As for whether America is ready for a woman to be president.... I REALLY disagree with King. I think that we are... if we weren't Hillary wouldn't be doing as well in the polls as she is. I just hope our first woman president isn't her.

Just one thing you stated about the woman thing.  You said: In the POLLS she's doing well.....honestly, I do not listen to polls at all.  They are biased and/or not commonly correct.  I prefer to let voting happen and THEN I consider that a poll.  Only then do I think about it.  Its why the bush thing is total crud.  We voted him in so OBVIOUSLY we wanted him in. 

And trust me, I don't think she has the support of women that people give her credit for.  I know many of my closest (female & male) relatives do not support her one bit.  I honestly do not think she will win.  Period.  Too many remember her husband, she's too polarized, and she's just too darn ugly!!!  THATS RIGHT!!  hahahahahaaha sorry.  Couldn't resist it, but truly, how many guys/girls vote on pure beauty?  Don't be shy haha.  ;) ;) ;)

Just yanking.  ;)

King

Blackride one of those articles was published in 1909!  Some people noticed the low population growth problem back then. I agree with you: we don't want to end up like Europe. Man, that'd be bad.

This has been an amazing conversation, and I've never been a member of any Internet community where it could have happened and remained civil.

I'm a fiscal conservative.  I need what little money I make and would like the federal gov't to take only what is needed.  Socially, I don't want that government telling me how to live my life.

I'm pro-choice, because there are already too many unwanted children.  I'm pro-death penalty, because some people need to die.

So, there's no one candidate or party that fits me well. 

I think Hillary is monumentally, historically awful.  I'd vote for a woman, just not that one.  Huckabee scares me.  I think Romney is as phoney as Obama is unqualified.  Edwards is an empty suit with a nice haircut.  I'd vote for Lieberman if he was running.  I wouldn't mind McCain winning the presidency, but I don't see it happening.

Quote from: Kinglinksr on January 21, 2008, 07:51:07 PM

Just one thing you stated about the woman thing.  You said: In the POLLS she's doing well.....honestly, I do not listen to polls at all.  They are biased and/or not commonly correct.  I prefer to let voting happen and THEN I consider that a poll.  Only then do I think about it.  Its why the bush thing is total crud.  We voted him in so OBVIOUSLY we wanted him in. 

And trust me, I don't think she has the support of women that people give her credit for.  I know many of my closest (female & male) relatives do not support her one bit.  I honestly do not think she will win.  Period.  Too many remember her husband, she's too polarized, and she's just too darn ugly!!!  THATS RIGHT!!  hahahahahaaha sorry.  Couldn't resist it, but truly, how many guys/girls vote on pure beauty?  Don't be shy haha.  ;) ;) ;)

Just yanking.  ;)

King

I can't believe I'm arguing for Hillary. Esh... I need to just stop. Buuuuut.... It's not just the polls. There's something called caucuses and primaries going on right now, it involves voting.

Hillary got 30% of the vote in Iowa

as of January 19th In Nevada Clinton 51%

Projected Winner in Michigan 55%

Projected Winner in New Hampshire 39%

It's more than polls King.... and truthfully, many of our presidents would make a freight train take a dirt road... I doubt that looks always play a role in who gets the vote. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder anyway. It's rude to even joke about what she looks like; many women are sensitive about that sort of thing.

I'd love to see Hillary and Obama on the same ticket, with Obama as Hillary's VP.  Seems to me that would be an automatic win for the Democrats.  I was a big fan of Bill Clinton and felt that during his two terms our country seemed to be doing better than I can ever remember fiscally, socially, and politically.  I'd love a return to that kind of political environment again. 

Obama won't take a VP slot. He has built up too much political clout and want's to keep that in the bank. He wan't the top spot and will be in a better position to get it even as far out as 8 years from now.

Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on January 22, 2008, 05:52:25 AM
I'd love to see Hillary and Obama on the same ticket, with Obama as Hillary's VP.  Seems to me that would be an automatic win for the Democrats.  I was a big fan of Bill Clinton and felt that during his two terms our country seemed to be doing better than I can ever remember fiscally, socially, and politically.  I'd love a return to that kind of political environment again. 

The Tech boom had a lot to do with that. Give the govt. credit for staying hands off for a while. I will say that in 2000 the writing was on the wall for the market to drop. There was no way it could sustain that growth.

Quote from: Blackride on January 22, 2008, 06:45:36 AM

Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on January 22, 2008, 05:52:25 AM
I'd love to see Hillary and Obama on the same ticket, with Obama as Hillary's VP.  Seems to me that would be an automatic win for the Democrats.  I was a big fan of Bill Clinton and felt that during his two terms our country seemed to be doing better than I can ever remember fiscally, socially, and politically.  I'd love a return to that kind of political environment again. 

The Tech boom had a lot to do with that. Give the govt. credit for staying hands off for a while. I will say that in 2000 the writing was on the wall for the market to drop. There was no way it could sustain that growth.

Not to derail the topic too much, but Clinton does get a little too much credit for the economic prosperity of the '90's, low marginal tax rates resulted in a lot of reinvestment in the economy which drove growth forward. The end of that boom actually began in 1999, as I saw technology prices and companies like Enron start to fall. Clients just didn't really begin to sell in earnest until 2000.

I am Republican and I am not happy with any of the candidates.  The meaning of the word Republican has been completely re-written by the current party leadership as it has disturbingly crawled in bed with the hard-line conservative religious leaders, no longer believes in fiscal responsibility, hugs a quasi-fascist anti terror campaign, and is too quick to engage in military action to "solve problems".

I am more of an Eisenhower Republican - I believe in fiscal responsibility, a more responsible foreign policy (no war with Iran), and making sure that we can take care of our citizens that most need help.  I do not believe in the death penalty, I believe that marijuana should be legalized, and I believe that we have an obligation to breakup the military industrial complex.  War is very good for business, but at too high of a cost in human lives. 

I am very concerned with the erosion of our rights, and the direction that we have taken as a nation.  The current administration is fueled by one thing: Fear.  They are trying to scare us into giving up our freedoms in the name of security.  We are doing exactly what Bin Laden wanted us to do.  We have played into his game.

That being said, I support the military action in Afghanistan, but oppose our military action in Iraq.

Bush II has been a complete disaster for this nation and the party. 


That is my opinion.

Quote from: Jen on January 22, 2008, 04:33:54 AMI can't believe I'm arguing for Hillary. Esh... I need to just stop. Buuuuut.... It's not just the polls. There's something called caucuses and primaries going on right now, it involves voting.

While I would agree that Hill seems to be winning the states, she's not winning as many delegates as Obama is. She's capturing more population centers and thus higher votes, but he's taking home more counties and delegates than she is right now.

I would also to point out that as much as I dissagree with Dubba, the recession and all of the big business stuff that came to light on his watch did not happen solely on his watch. Big business was playing the shell game well into the Clinton era and one of the main problems with the strength of the dollar and the folding of the giants were simply discovered after Bush came into office.

Well, the dollar weakness has actually been an underlying part of Bush's economic policy combined with massive liquidity via low interest rates. That made for cheap goods to buy for consumers and a house in every pot which helped to hide defecit spending brought on by foriegn policy, for right or wrong.
But again, this is a thread about the next President of the US and we keep getting side tracked.

Quote from: Bryancd on January 22, 2008, 09:18:09 AM
Well, the dollar weakness has actually been an underlying part of Bush's economic policy combined with massive liquidity via low interest rates. That made for cheap goods to buy for consumers and a house in every pot which helped to hide defecit spending brought on by foriegn policy, for right or wrong.
But again, this is a thread about the next President of the US and we keep getting side tracked.

Yea we do seem to do that.  Final comment on Jen's post and anything to do with Hillary.  True that she seems to have some support.  And I guess I need to slap myself in the face and realize those are pretty realistic views of people's thoughts about her.  However, its only a couple states.  She may win the primaries but she'll never win the election.  Funny enough, Republicans are hoping she'll win the Primaries so we can squash her in the election.  Honestly, there is not enough support for her to win the election unless the republican guy is not loved at all.  We will see.  It can still go either way. 

King

And I'm reading my post and confusing myself....I jumped the fence like three times.  Lets hear it for decisiveness!!  lol

King 

Quote from: Bryancd on January 22, 2008, 09:18:09 AM
Well, the dollar weakness has actually been an underlying part of Bush's economic policy combined with massive liquidity via low interest rates. That made for cheap goods to buy for consumers and a house in every pot which helped to hide defecit spending brought on by foriegn policy, for right or wrong.
But again, this is a thread about the next President of the US and we keep getting side tracked.

Is it off track? I mean ... I consider all of these things when deciding who I want to endorse for President. Sure people might think that I have only one vote, but every person I picked for Prez has been sworn into office ever since the reign of Bush I. They aren't always the people I would personally pick, but I can always tell a winner.

I think the issues are a key part in understanding the voting pattern of the person and helps for others to understand if not accept their political positions.

For sure, X, it's just that we can't vote for Bush or Bill Clinton, so a review of those economic policies, success and failures, isn't as germane to the original topic.

Quote from: Bryancd on January 22, 2008, 09:35:23 AM
For sure, X, it's just that we can't vote for Bush or Bill Clinton, so a review of those economic policies, success and failures, isn't as germane to the original topic.

If Hill is basing part of her record on the time that her husband was president, then those successes and failures seem to go hand in hand with her canidacy.

As for Bush, I only said something nice about him so I wouldn't have to say something mean about Romney.

LOL!!

Quote from: Just X on January 22, 2008, 09:06:17 AM

Quote from: Jen on January 22, 2008, 04:33:54 AMI can't believe I'm arguing for Hillary. Esh... I need to just stop. Buuuuut.... It's not just the polls. There's something called caucuses and primaries going on right now, it involves voting.

While I would agree that Hill seems to be winning the states, she's not winning as many delegates as Obama is. She's capturing more population centers and thus higher votes, but he's taking home more counties and delegates than she is right now.

I'm not saying she's on top. King said the country wouldn't accept a woman as president. My point was simply that there are people who are voting for her... otherwise she would drop out. ::subliminal message:: Hilary drop out, you're going to lose. ::subliminal message::

lol

King

I would say Colin Powell, but he's not running, nor is he a politician (drats!). I'm also wishing that Al Gore had done the things he's done after the election before he ran (An Inconvenient Truth, starting Current TV, etc). I would have been more motivated to vote.

Generally, I have been so disappointed with politics in this country that I've felt that those who could have been president were not given a chance. I actually have a problem with our two party system. They bring to mind the Big 3 auto makers who railroaded Preston Tucker, who tried to introduce safety features to automobiles back in the 40's.

Quote from: Just X on January 21, 2008, 01:51:13 PM

I don't like Clinton either because I can't trust her for some reason.

McCain and Obama are the two that I like the most.

I don't trust Clinton either. It crystallized when she became a New York senator. It was obvious she was positioning herself for a presidential run (while denying it strenuously). Obama, while he may not have the experience of the others, has also not been tainted by the system. I'm not so concerned about foreign policy as there will be enough domestic mess to clean up. I believe, however, that Obama has the presidential gravitas to handle himself in an international forum.

Obama also hearkens back to earlier figures (such as Kennedy and MLK), with a confident bearing and positive message. I don't get a sense that he's telling me everything I want to hear. Obama comes off as the genuine article. I particularly like the message that it is not a Republican America, nor a Democrat America -- it is simply the United States of America. You should check out his MLK Day speech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf0x_TpDris

I appreciate the fact that he could have gone the ambitious capitalist route, but decided to do things in his career to help people.

My only fear is that if he has a running mate who could make a competent replacement for him, that he'd easily be assassinated. I base this on the history of this country.

There was a time when I thought I was weighted more toward Republican sensibilities because of certain issues. Being African American, my sympathies lie with some of the Democratic sensibility. When I really look at myself, I'm more of a Centrist. Both sides have their positive and negative aspects. I tend to look at the individual rather than the party (my experiences with racism and being treated poorly by my own people -- as well as the message of Star Trek -- have guided that).

However, I would prefer to have a valid third and fourth party alternative.

Quote from: Jobydrone4of20 on January 22, 2008, 05:52:25 AM
I'd love to see Hillary and Obama on the same ticket, with Obama as Hillary's VP.  Seems to me that would be an automatic win for the Democrats.  I was a big fan of Bill Clinton and felt that during his two terms our country seemed to be doing better than I can ever remember fiscally, socially, and politically.  I'd love a return to that kind of political environment again. 

I believe that people have been so burned by the Bush presidency that it's going to be an automatic Democratic win. Most likely what will happen is that either Obama or Clinton will get the nomination and Edwards will be invited to be the running mate.

It's just a feeling, an opinion. Not based on anything practically valid.

No offense to you Darmok or anyone who supports Barack...but this video just stopped me from considering him a potential candidate.  Why? might you ask.  Because he is playing politics in church.  Although I consider our current "separation of church and state "rule"" overused and abused, I do NOT like to be preached to about politics when I listen to worship or go to worship.  I'm sorry, but I'm there to listen to the Bible, not a candidate's views of politics. 

Another way to view it is, do you like listening to a sermon about how we should all be stopping the drilling of oil/you should support taxes/anything political?  I do not like it when pastors try to talk about politics.  Its all fine and dandy when they aren't on the podium as they have their opinion, but talking about it in front of the church-goers, in my honest opinion, is......not right.  Yes, I acknowledge that Religion and Politics mix, but in this case, I cannot stand for it. 

Now, one thing before I stop, I accept your opinions.  I don't mean to shut anyone down ever.  I'm just stating my opinion.  And I accept that I might have misinterpreted this video.

King

Quote from: Kinglinksr on January 27, 2008, 10:20:17 PM
No offense to you Darmok or anyone who supports Barack...but this video just stopped me from considering him a potential candidate.  Why? might you ask.  Because he is playing politics in church.  Although I consider our current "separation of church and state "rule"" overused and abused, I do NOT like to be preached to about politics when I listen to worship or go to worship.  I'm sorry, but I'm there to listen to the Bible, not a candidate's views of politics. 

Another way to view it is, do you like listening to a sermon about how we should all be stopping the drilling of oil/you should support taxes/anything political?  I do not like it when pastors try to talk about politics.  Its all fine and dandy when they aren't on the podium as they have their opinion, but talking about it in front of the church-goers, in my honest opinion, is......not right.  Yes, I acknowledge that Religion and Politics mix, but in this case, I cannot stand for it. 

Now, one thing before I stop, I accept your opinions.  I don't mean to shut anyone down ever.  I'm just stating my opinion.  And I accept that I might have misinterpreted this video.

King

I think you are taking this very out of context. He went to a church and talked. He's not the first or last canidate to do that. Every person running for any office needs to hear what the people say.

Going to church or having faith does not conflict with the seperation of church and state. It's not even what it means. The seperation means that we won't let the church run the country, not that all of our elected officials need to be godless pagens.

This wasn't an advertisement. It was something some captured while he was talking at a church, but I don't think that's the point.

I don't think you need a reason to not vote for him. IF you are not going to vote for him or Hillary, that's fine. I don't need a reason as to why you're not voting Democrat, but if it wasn't this video, it was the picture before it.

This is only my opinion, but it seems as if you had already made up your mind about not voting for him and now are looking for reasons to justify that choice when you don't need to. When you posted the picture you said it made you not consider him, then you see the video and that makes you not consider him.

Face it, you never considered him and I think it's safe to say that everyone here is cool with that. We don't need you to explain why you made your choice.

Quote from: Kinglinksr on January 27, 2008, 10:20:17 PM
No offense to you Darmok or anyone who supports Barack...but this video just stopped me from considering him a potential candidate.  Why? might you ask.  Because he is playing politics in church.

I understand where you're coming from. The thing to take into consideration here is the history of the American Black Church. In this country, there are essentially two Christian churches, the White Church and the Black Church. Because of the oppressive atmosphere of slavery, the Black Church was (in addition to being a place for spiritual nourishment) a place where community issues were secretly discussed. Remember, slaves were not really allowed to meet and organize. Eventually, it evolved to adjust to the needs of the free African American community. This is where the affairs of the community have been dealt with, which is how the Civil Rights Movement came about. Preachers like Dr. King had to wear two hats. One of spiritual leader, proclaiming the Gospel of Christ. The other of Community Leader, dealing with the social/political issues of a disenfranchised people. For better or worse, this is what has come to be.

Obama's speech, in this context, uses the style of rhetoric that this audience is accustomed to. Remember also, that this is also a sort of homage to Dr. King as well as Obama asserting his Blackness -- a sort of reassurance. It is not meant to preach a political gospel, but to meet this demographic where it lives. I do not see him as a preacher, but a leader demonstrating his familiarity with spiritual concepts. He's relating. In the Black community, there is a thick wall of mistrust against "The White Establishment". This is a significant and necessary step to build that trust. As JustX has stated, he's not the first political candidate to speak at a church.

I also believe that church is not the place for political discussion and campaigning, but have to be understanding of this particular culture. However, I do appreciate the germ of spiritual truth contained within the speech. It lets me know that there's an authenticity to Obama's faith. Perhaps if slave masters had treated slaves as brothers when introducing Christianity, there would be a truly unified Church.

I'll be honest here, I really do not know who I'm going to vote for.  Neither side shows good enough people and I think the backstabbing that has started/going to happen, is just going to put me off even more.  I didn't like how the election of 04 went with Kerry and Bush continually trying to burn each other on the "stake" all the time and it seems that this trend is going to happen again.  Maybe I'm wrong.  I'm not "God" I'm afraid.  Also, it seems that they are so insecure (except for some) with themselves that they have to lash out at someone else.  I really wish this sort of trend didn't happen, but as I have to remind myself, its politics. 

And you both bring up a good point.  I guess I'm just too darn young to understand everything at once.  (Darn youth!!! lol)  ;) ;)  Hopefully I'm not "corrupted" by hopelessness later on.  ;)

King

Kingster,

I felt the same way last election. Don't think it's a youth thing. My take is that it's a lack of solid choices thing. The game of politics has become more vicious and vacuous. It has become about offense/defense and not about issues. In the recent and current political climate, perhaps those who really could make a difference have found it too dirty and distracting to deal with. What exacerbates things is the exclusion of candidates outside of the DemoPublican Party -- remember Ralph Nader? This election seems more compelling to me. Not so much that there's a Black and Female candidate, but that one of them hearkens back to the days of more stately politicians (you had to have been there, I guess). Also, coming out of the current administration, making the right choice is critical.

I really like Obama the more I hear him. He makes a lot of sense. One problem I do have with him though is the black racism his so-called pastor spouts off. If Obama wants "unity" and an America where color does not exist as an issue then why has he supported this all black church for 20 years?

As a Christian there are many social issue Obama represents that I believe do need addressing and it is high time for a change. I'm not yet convinced he is the man for President but as I have said before if the choice is Hillary or Obama I would rather see him than her. If anyone wants to hear a good speech by Obama they should listen to his South Carolina victory speech.

Kevin

Quote from: Ktrek on January 28, 2008, 01:51:35 PM
I really like Obama the more I hear him. He makes a lot of sense. One problem I do have with him though is the black racism his so-called pastor spouts off. If Obama wants "unity" and an America where color does not exist as an issue then why has he supported this all black church for 20 years?

That was Martin Luther King's church that he was speaking at. I don't believe that acknowledging it makes him exclusively Afrocentric. As far as the pastor is concerned, he's speaking from a sense of pride. As a people, we have had so few decent role models that each good one give us a sense of hope and pride for ourselves. It's like prisoners celebrating someone who finally gets released (admittedly a crude metaphor, but I hope you get the gist).

I realize that the video was from Dr. King's church. That's not what I was making reference to at all. I was referring to Rev. Jeremiah Wright the pastor of Trinity Church of Christ in Chicago. This so-called pastor is known for his anti-white rhetoric and I think he is dangerous and I'd hate to think that he could continue in a new role as spiritual advisor of the President. I like Obama I just don't think I care for those he surrounds himself with.

Kevin

Gotcha.

Well, last nights Florida Primary sure was a barn burner for McCain. Romney is going to have to dig deep into his own pockets to keep him alive through Super Tuesday. Guilliani is out, so his supporters will go to McCain, who know looks like the guy to beat. I will be supporting him in the fall.
For the Dem's, Edwards departure simply leaves the field as is, Clinton vs. Obama. If they dominate Obama, McCain wins, if they nominate Clinton, she wins.

Well, I have decided to throw my lot in with Obama. I have been a Republican most of my adult life and have voted that way with the exception of Jimmy Carter. However, I can no longer support the Republican position as it currently stands. In Texas our primaries are May 4th, I think, and I intend to vote for Obama. Hillary is way too scary for me. I also cannot understand why anyone would think that a Bush, Clinton, Bush and Clinton again dynasty is good for this country. If you have valid reasons I'd like to know! Why should two families be allowed to run the country for a quarter of a century? It makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. OK, I admit she was First Lady but that does not qualify her to be President. She also has no leadership qualities. I suppose the first time America is in real danger she is just going to sit in the oval office and "cry"? I could care less about her tears and how personal she thinks all this is. I care about a "vision" for America that is better than the one we have today and I think Obama has that vision and he believes in the "people" and not the politicians. Change begins with me and change begins with you, and if enough of us "get" what Obama is saying we can make a difference in this country.

Now, that said, let me say that even though I do not want to vote for McCain in November he will be getting my vote if it means defeating Hillary. I'm very encouraged by the advances Obama has made. In polls only a few weeks back the news media was telling us he had NO chance but now look where he is! Running neck and neck with Hillary. The Clintons do not play nice and their tactics are unscrupulous but I think Obama can overtake her. Just today it was announced that she was having to "lend" (of course expecting full restitution) $5 Million of her own money to her campaign. Obama does not have the deep pockets of Hillary but guess what? He has raised almost that much in 24 hours just from those who believe in him. Last month in 31 days his supporters raised $32 Million dollars. No big corporations like Hillary just common people like you and me!

If you have not listened to Obama and heard what he has to say then please go to barackobama.com and check out the Media section and listen to his speeches. He is one who can motivate and make you proud once again to be an American.

If you find yourself that you cannot support Hillary I would ask you to please consider donating even just $25.00 to his campaign. He needs money to pay for advertising in order to overcome Hillary. Every little bit helps!

I believe and think that Obama has what it takes to be a GREAT President. He genuinely cares for the people. He has not sold out to Washington politics and he has INTEGRITY.

If this Republican can find hope in a Democrat than I know others can also! A vote for Obama is a vote for hope and change. We can do this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsrgYvx7KJE&eurl=http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/hqblog

Kevin

While broad, general ideas like "hope" and "change" make for good speeches from the bully pulpit, good speeches do not a good President make.

If he wants to create what would, in essence, become the one of the largest federal bureaucracies in this country by giving everyone government run health care, thereby possibly creating situations common to Canada and the UK where people have ridiculously long waiting periods for some procedures....that is not the kind of change I want.

If he is going to raise taxes on everyone to pay for the above gov't run health care....and make no mistake, regardless of his "middle class tax cut" talk, taxes would have to be raised across the board to pay for something as massive as socialized health care...that's not the change I want.

If he is going to pull out of Iraq prematurely, compromising strategic positioning and doing far more harm in the long run to our foreign policy, along with the fact that it will give the radical sect of Islam a mammoth propaganda victory and do NOTHING to dissuade them from wanting to see the US fall and most likely embolden them in plotting future attacks on us and our interests around the world...that is definitely not the change I want.

I also would like a few more specifics on some of his other positions...the above examples are pretty much all I hear about from him.  I am not a one issue voter by any stretch but I have to admit that the prosecution of the war on terror is a big issue to me and  Senator Obama's position "I want to talk to our enemies and try and mend fences" position is not encouraging at the very least and I think would be nothing but a futile exercise of whizzing into the wind.

Ktrek, you are absolutely right.  I also believe that Senator Obama is a man of great integrity and he may one day make a great President, I just don't know that now is the time.  Believe me I don't disagree very much at all with what Obama wants to accomplish or his vision about where he wants to take the nation.  My fundamental disagreement is with the methods that he (or Senator Clinton) want to use to accomplish these goals and achieve that vision.

Good points Darth Gaos. Obama and Clinton are going to be debating in Austin soon. They are giving out 100 tickets to the public. I'm going to try to get one... Though I'm a conservative and don't agree with them, I'll listen to what they have to say.

Quote from: Jen on February 14, 2008, 04:36:30 PMThough I'm a conservative and don't agree with them, I'll listen to what they have to say.

Then you don't have much choice in candidates Jen. McCain is no way a conservative. Ron Paul or Huckabee are the most conservative choices but Ron Paul has no chance in the world and Huckabee probably is the one who should have dropped out rather than Romney. Romney was quite conservative.

I also am a conservative but I also think the Republicans have run things too long. And I cannot support Hillary at all. So my only choice is Obama because nobody else (Paul or Huckabee) have a chance.

Kevin

You have a right to your opinion Ktrek. I'm not straight ticket Republican... And I happen to like McCain. Bush has totally ticked me off more times than not. Though I admire Huckabee I don't like that he wants to change the constitution—leave it alone. My main concern is our country's defense. I trust McCain for that.

Jen,

I have no doubt that McCain has the country's defense as a core value but so does Obama. He just believes that the Iraq war was wrong from the start and it's wrong now but he also believes that cautious withdraw is called for. Obama is not against all wars as he feels the war in Afghanistan is right but not the war in Iraq. McCain will keep us in the Middle East for as long as possible because he has ties, like Bush, to oil money. Obama believes the U.S. should find a way, and soon, to not be dependent on Middle East oil, and rightly so.

As for McCain being a conservative I guess he is about as conservative as Ted Kennedy as he is in bed with him on several issues. Check his record.

I'm not discounting your views but just encouraging friendly debate. So don't take it personally please!

Kevin

I am fine with friendly debates Ktrek. I just don't want to invite conflict—I HATE arguing, it stresses me out.  So if I disagree, let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

To address your comment above, McCain is more conservative than Obama or Clinton. He is in the middle as far as politics goes and I personally believe that's where the country should move. Some conservatives are ticked at him because of his stance on immigration and his willingness to cooperate with others...so radio hosts tag him as a "traitor". I'm not swayed by the endorsements of celebrities or talk show hosts (radio or TV) so I haven't rejected him.

As I've mentioned before I'm sick and tired of politics. Everyone is complaining that Washington can't get things done. Maybe that's because very few politicians want to do what's right, they just do what their party wants to gain or keep the power. If Ron Paul wasn't crazy, I'd vote for him... 

I'm inclined to agree with McCain with regards to immigration. Build a fence? What a crock! My family is from deep South Texas, I know fences don't stop illegals. They dig under it, climb over it, cut through it. What a waste of money, not to mention hypocritical action (Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!) The legalization process is a huge bureaucratic hairball. The waiting list to become an American citizen is huge and it's so expensive. I have a friend who is an American. Her daughter was born in Canada. Apparently there was some sort of cut off period as far as how old an American has to be to give birth to children who have duel citizenship. I think my friend said she was just over 18 (she's in her late fifties now). Anyway, she has told me about the crap her daughter has to go through to keep a green card. The agency that "regulates" this doesn't know up from down. They issued her a Social Security number, even though she isn't American and she didn't apply for it. Since her younger brothers have duel citizenship they probably just assumed she did too. Now this agency has finally realized it was wrong, after almost thirty years. She has tried to get legalized and has spent thousands of dollars to do so, but was told the waiting list was eleven years! This needs to be fixed... It shouldn't be this complicated. If they want people to become Americans and stop coming over illegally they need to correct the problems not cover it with a band aid.

Did you know that President Bush just sent a billion dollars to Mexico so they can protect their southern boarders? What the!? Those are the things Bush does that ruffles my feathers.

I don't think the war is unjust. I come from a military family and they're not criminals they're our protectors. The men and women of our armed forces volunteered to protect and serve their families and friends—their country. They are not stupid...they have not been duped, they are doing what they believe is right for you and me. If they didn't we'd probably be suffering at the terrorists hands on a regular basis here. We are fighting people who would jump at the chance to kill more of us if presented the opportunity.  I'd rather we confront them over there than over on our own soil and I'm thankful that there are people who are willing to do it.

Obama has little experience with regards to this. McCain was a Vietnam veteran, if anyone knows about quagmires... it's him.  Obama continues to stir people for change but he doesn't talk about the issues. Even if I disagree with McCain on some issues, he has remained constant with regards to his stance on many things, and I feel I can trust his word more than the others. I won't vote for Obama. I can move to the middle, but I can't move to the left... it's just not going to happen.

That was very well said Jen, I don't agree with most of it.. but to each his own..

On the issue of immigration I agree that the government needs to overhaul the entire process. I personally deal with the immigration issue everyday. Under the current immigration law because I'm a gay man I don't have any rights. I find my true love living in Austria, if I were straight and Harry was female all I would have to do is marry Harry and he could apply for citizenship as my partner. Oh wait.. I can't legally marry in this country under the immigration law. Republicans see it as a detriment to the sacred vows of marriage. Even though my love for Harry is no less then a man's love for his wife. But we are looked upon as second class citizens and don't deserve the rights of the majority.

And I just have to say it sickens me that anyone would willing vote for Huckabee, the things he has said about gay people are unbelievable, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised since the Evangelist Christians are behind him 100% and we know how they feel about us "FAGS".

Sorry about the rant.. it's tough sometime living in a world where 2/3's of the people hate you for who you love.

I just have two questions:

One:  Disregarding Obama or Mcain and what they've said.  What makes you sure that they will stand by what they say?  Lets face it.  Bush certainly failed in his 2nd term to do what he said.  (I still think he did a good job in his first term)  So what makes you sure that any of these candidates will follow through with what they've said thus far?  History within the last 15+ years shows otherwise.  Not just Presidents but Governors and senators etc as well. 


Two: What should we do about Illegal Immigration if a fence is not going to work?  Lets face it, we cannot handle Mexico and the US's population at the same time.  But as far as I can tell, thats what is going to happen in about 10 years.  How can we keep taking people in?  I don't want to be a closed country that won't let anyone in, but we can't keep taking on ppl that suck on US's lifeblood without giving back.  (Yes, lets face it, not all immigrants work/pay taxes.  I sadly know of some.)  So is there an answer? 

King

Quote from: Kinglinksr on February 15, 2008, 09:56:06 AM
Two: What should we do about Illegal Immigration if a fence is not going to work?  Lets face it, we cannot handle Mexico and the US's population at the same time.  But as far as I can tell, thats what is going to happen in about 10 years.  How can we keep taking people in?  I don't want to be a closed country that won't let anyone in, but we can't keep taking on ppl that suck on US's lifeblood without giving back.  (Yes, lets face it, not all immigrants work/pay taxes.  I sadly know of some.)  So is there an answer? 

King

Actually, this view is kind of myopic. Do illegal immigrants pay taxes? Depends on who you ask.

Most employers, even when they are hiring illegal immigrants, require them to use socials. Now this is money that will enter the system, but never be used because the numbers aren't valid. All it does is dump money in the the Social Security program that becomes just another source of fed income.

those that don't pay taxes are working in jobs that are mainly unwanted and for wages far below min wage. This "extra" profit the people that use this labor makes is still put down on the books and as profit, it is a taxable expense. So while the individual makes less than normal pay, the government makes their pay and the reduced cost of the labor allows for the cheaper cost of the product and this in turn allows more product to be sold because it is affordable. more product sold means more income from sales tax and more employment to those jobs that many americans would be willing to take.

The problem isn't that there are illegals in the country, the problem is that people want to make it an issue and let's face it. As long as immigration is an issue, it becomes a supply and demand thing.

People make money bring them over and their employers save money by paying them less and forcing them to take it because the can be deported.

If not for the immigrant workforce or the migrant workers that are mostly illegals making little to nothing, there would be no life's blood. Do you really think that we would be able to afford fruit grown in Cali with a min wage of over 8 bucks and 30 - 50 workers needed to havest for upwards of 12 hours a day for 2- 3 weeks?

It is my opinion that politics have for years been using the ignorance of issues as a means to manipulate the common man. Our electorial system is built on a foundation that assume the common man doesn't really know how to vote, so they need someone to do it for them.

Political debates assume the same thing. People will be quick to attach themselves to negative suface information and they won't bother to look deeper into the issues. People assume that someone else is going to solve the problem for them, if it even is a problem, and they leave it there. Instead of looking to those we elect for a solution to what they tell us are the problems facing us, I think that we need to do the work ourselves and learn what the issues are and how we would do our part to solve them.

I don't expect anyone to pay my bills or fix my problems at home. I can't expect someone I don't know to come up with a solution to the things that I consider a problem if I don't do my part to figure out a solution.


That's only my two cents and only because I am tired of the politics that seem to be creating problems without considering if it really is a problem.

Since I was talking about solutions. I think that we should just drop the need to wall the boarder and begin the process of creating a unified currency for this side of the world.

Not only will it make money stronger, it would make living conditions better and it would reduce the need for people to want to immigrate.

This unified currency would strengthen the all time low of the dollar and if we were smart it would make us closer to our neighbors. It would become a way to standardize the level of care on this side of the globe and also reduce the jobs that are being shipped elsewhere because standards are on the rise.

Jen:
I dig Ron Paul too, but he really does come across like a nut job a lot!

Kenny:
As a moderate Republican, I can very much appreciate the frustration you and Harry must feel regarding this contentious issue. I wish the Republican party could see their way clear to allow for a form of civil union wherein gay couples could have access to all the rights and benefits afforded heterosexual marriages. I would support that in a hear beat.

Just X:
Well said, a unified currency would be of a great long term benefit to the entire region. It may not be as good a result as the situation with the Euro has been, however, as the economies of Central and South America are not as mature as those of Europe, excluding the ex-Soviet block nations.

Kenny, I just want to say that I an "Evangelical Christian", to be specific I am a Baptist. I don't agree with Huckabee and I don't think you are the word you used. I respect you as a human being, and as a friend. I know many others who are the same.

I would like to apologize for my statement about Evangelist Christian.. that was wrong of me to paint all of them with the same brush. I meant no ill will to anyone who is an EC. But they do tend to be the most vocal against homosexuality.

King, as I said in my post, the second one in this thread, I wouldn't trust most of these people to hold my purse, much less run my country. Simply put, all I can do is look at their records and see if they stuck to their guns or flipped to something else because it was the popular thing to do at the time. Some of them are corrupt and there is a trail to prove that as well. Like I said, for the most part McCain says something and sticks to it even if it isn't popular with his party...Even if I don't agree with everything he says and does, I admire that quality.

As far as immigration is concerned, I agree with you... I don't know how to fix it, but I think they need to start with the policies already in place. They are a real mess. Making a wall won't do Jack Squat and I'll have to look at it as it gets painted with graffiti and wildlife (ex. deer) get hung in it. The international boarder between Mexico and the US is nearly 2,000 miles long. We can not make a fence that long and adequately maintain and patrol it—it's ludicrous, not to mention exceedingly expensive. Monitoring the boarder with cameras and satellites seems smarter. And building up the boarder patrol with man power, equipment and money is more effective than building a dumb wall.

As for the migrant workers,  I have known many. Most are great people, and I don't have a problem with any of them who want to be American citizens. Shoot, I LIVE next door to a family from Mexico. They are kind people who keep to themselves. My father learned to speak fluent Spanish by working side by side with migrant farm workers. In fact, most of my family has worked side by side with them in the peanut and watermelon fields of South Texas... for the same pay I might add. Yes, there are Americans here that will do those jobs too... you might not know them, but they are around. They mend fences, run tractors, work cattle, pick watermelons.... I know them. So the excuse of "Amercians don't want to do that work" does NOT won't work with me. I think if Mexicans want to be Americans, and they are upstanding individuals (not criminals) they should endeavor to become Americans and we should fix the system so they can.

I don't like it when Mexican nationals work here, leave, and get the same rights as American citizens. Health care in Texas is strained by illegals who get treated and go home without paying their bills. These are issues that need to be addressed. And I'm sorry, a fence can't do it.

Quote from: Kinglinksr on February 15, 2008, 09:56:06 AM
I just have two questions:

One:  Disregarding Obama or Mcain and what they've said.  What makes you sure that they will stand by what they say?  Lets face it.  Bush certainly failed in his 2nd term to do what he said.  (I still think he did a good job in his first term)  So what makes you sure that any of these candidates will follow through with what they've said thus far?  History within the last 15+ years shows otherwise.  Not just Presidents but Governors and senators etc as well. 


Two: What should we do about Illegal Immigration if a fence is not going to work?  Lets face it, we cannot handle Mexico and the US's population at the same time.  But as far as I can tell, thats what is going to happen in about 10 years.  How can we keep taking people in?  I don't want to be a closed country that won't let anyone in, but we can't keep taking on ppl that suck on US's lifeblood without giving back.  (Yes, lets face it, not all immigrants work/pay taxes.  I sadly know of some.)  So is there an answer? 

King

Im a Republican and will be voting for John McCain. The main reasons are as follows:

1.)While we can disagree on the Iraq war, it would be a disaster to just pull out in a set amount of days. Im a veteran myself, and would be sick if the loss of life the Iraqis have suffered and especially OUR courageous military was all in vain. We cant ask the Iraqi people to do in short order, what it's taken America a couple hundred years to do, and we still havent got it perfect.

2.)McCain actually is closer to where I am in ideology. Im really not a conservative, more moderate actually. Im ok with a president that is willing to budge a bit on some things.

3.)Immigration-Im not obsessed with those that are already here...I live in Florida, probably have a lot of friends who are illegal. But, we cant just let the flow continue unchecked. No nation can allow an unregulated swell in its population. Infrastructure will eventually collapse.

The above being said, I really respect Barack Obama and think that despite many idealogical differences, he would likely be a good president and I would support him. I think his heart is in the right place. Hillary on the other hand...no.

Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on February 15, 2008, 11:13:09 AM
I would like to apologize for my statement about Evangelist Christian.. that was wrong of me to paint all of them with the same brush. I meant no ill will to anyone who is an EC. But they do tend to be the most vocal against homosexuality.

I don't mean to nitpick here Kenny but I believe you meant "Evangelical Christian", which refers to a certain belief system within Christendom. All Christians no matter where they may be found are called to be "evangelists" and that's another matter from what you refer.

Kevin

Quote from: Ktrek on February 15, 2008, 09:04:19 PM

Quote from: StarTrekFanatic5 on February 15, 2008, 11:13:09 AM
I would like to apologize for my statement about Evangelist Christian.. that was wrong of me to paint all of them with the same brush. I meant no ill will to anyone who is an EC. But they do tend to be the most vocal against homosexuality.

I don't mean to nitpick here Kenny but I believe you meant "Evangelical Christian", which refers to a certain belief system within Christendom. All Christians no matter where they may be found are called to be "evangelists" and that's another matter from what you refer.

Kevin

You are correct Kevin.. thanks for the correction.

Quote from: Jen on January 21, 2008, 07:11:01 PM
:D Awesome Moyer...

I however have decided that I'm voting for Data. At least he's honest....and... he's really, really, really strong.  ;)

The only thing is, you press the button in his back and Data folds like a house of cards.

"Pinocchio is broken. His strings have been cut."
-- William Riker

Thats where you hire lots of trustworthy bodyguards for Data to watch his back.  lol

King

Why not just disable the button?

Quote from: The IC on January 22, 2008, 08:45:44 AM
I am Republican and I am not happy with any of the candidates.  The meaning of the word Republican has been completely re-written by the current party leadership as it has disturbingly crawled in bed with the hard-line conservative religious leaders, no longer believes in fiscal responsibility, hugs a quasi-fascist anti terror campaign, and is too quick to engage in military action to "solve problems".

I am more of an Eisenhower Republican - I believe in fiscal responsibility, a more responsible foreign policy (no war with Iran), and making sure that we can take care of our citizens that most need help.  I do not believe in the death penalty, I believe that marijuana should be legalized, and I believe that we have an obligation to breakup the military industrial complex.  War is very good for business, but at too high of a cost in human lives. 

I am very concerned with the erosion of our rights, and the direction that we have taken as a nation.  The current administration is fueled by one thing: Fear.  They are trying to scare us into giving up our freedoms in the name of security.  We are doing exactly what Bin Laden wanted us to do.  We have played into his game.

That being said, I support the military action in Afghanistan, but oppose our military action in Iraq.

Bush II has been a complete disaster for this nation and the party. 


That is my opinion.

You are a Democrat. Welcome. ;)

I am actually a Green. I don't think the Dems go far enough to the left, considering that they are, as I pointed out above, Eisenhower Republicans - which is not a necessarily bad thing to be.

I understand that the Green Party has no hope of getting a candidate into the White House any time soon, and to be honest, I would not support one in the current climate. But I feel it is important to have alternate views expressed and maybe we can influence, if there is enough of us, whatever regime is in power.

Someone mentioned Evangelical Christians. (Hi, Kenny.) If you want to know more about this more-common-all-the-time beastie, then watch a film called "Jesus Camp". And know this; I was raised Baptist, and with the exception of the speaking in tongues in the film, I went through similar indoctrinations, the breaking of which took many years of hard drinking, anonymous sex, and a painful divorce. I am the better man for it.

Finally, I am always surprised to hear about scifi fans being Repubs, more so Star Trek fans. The Trek Universe supports such a Socialistic viewpoint, and so constantly vilifies the fascistic and/or theocratic right, that it is a wonder there isn't a Star Trek party even lefter of left, considering how many fans there are purported to be. Think of all the wonderful things we could get done ... .

Quote from: Locutus on February 18, 2008, 11:03:45 PM

Someone mentioned Evangelical Christians. (Hi, Kenny.) If you want to know more about this more-common-all-the-time beastie, then watch a film called "Jesus Camp". And know this; I was raised Baptist, and with the exception of the speaking in tongues in the film, I went through similar indoctrinations, the breaking of which took many years of hard drinking, anonymous sex, and a painful divorce. I am the better man for it.

Finally, I am always surprised to hear about scifi fans being Repubs, more so Star Trek fans. The Trek Universe supports such a Socialistic viewpoint, and so constantly vilifies the fascistic and/or theocratic right, that it is a wonder there isn't a Star Trek party even lefter of left, considering how many fans there are purported to be. Think of all the wonderful things we could get done ... .

wow, I'm feelin' the love!   :wallbash:

Quote from: moyer777 on February 18, 2008, 11:15:11 PM
wow, I'm feelin' the love!   :wallbash:

HA!

Honestly, I'm not worried about offending any Evangelical Christians on this board for a few reasons.

1) Evangelicals are offended by pretty much everything except other Evangelicals, and sometimes even by THEM. They look for things to be offended by and then write letters and vote in Evangelical congressmen to get their issues into law. (OK, we all do that, but their issues tend to be great for them specifically even as they erode our Constitutional rights.)

2) I'm not talking about people with faith. I'm talking specifically about the far righties KNOWN as Evangelicals. They look like Christians, they talk like Christians, sometimes, they even act like Christians - but they are NOT Christians, at least not as I and anyone I knew ever practiced the faith. I am not insulting those with faith. I am indicating the cancer that is the Evangelical (and I will stop putting the word Christian behind it, as it assumes something that is not true, namely that they are in fact Christians.)

3) If you ARE an Evangelical, what are you doing on the Internet? What are you doing on this board? What are you doing watching Star Trek? If you truly know what an Evangelical is, then you are aware that they cannot possibly be part of this community, not the least reason of which would be the propensity to proselytize and tell certain people (Hi, Kenny) that they are going to Hell for their "chosen" lifestyle. They would be preaching every single time they opened their mouths. And Rico would warn them and then kick them, as they would in no way attempt to be as calm nor as polite to any of us as I am being to them. Since no one on here does that, at least as far as I've seen, I believe I can safely assume no one on here is an Evangelical.

So, Moyer. Relax. I have my own personal faith. I speak no ill of those who have faith. I am not a huge fan of organized religion, but I understand the part it plays in people's lives, and I can appreciate it in that context, as long as they can understand that I don't wish to participate.

As far as the Right Wing comment goes - have you (any of you, not just Moyer) ever wondered where we get the terms Right and Left wing (if indeed you do not already know)? Any Political Science class in college would teach you this (or even High School, but I didn't take it there) but here is a cool article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum. it gives some interesting alternatives to the standard concepts. Enjoy.

One of the reasons I love this board is because we all get along even with differing backgrounds and belief systems.  I really haven't noticed any pushing of each other's beliefs until now.   :-\ 

You obviously have a strong opinions and have no problem painting people with a broad brush. 

As for me, I won't stoop to generalizations about any particular group of people.  I reserve the right to enjoy the friends I have made on this board and focus on the things we have in common, not the opposite.

 

Must....resist....replying......

King

You're entitled to your opinions but don't put us all in a box. This is why I hate politics, it's divisive.
This is a pretty diverse group and I have made friends who come from many different backgrounds here.

Which is why I don't talk about it often.  I know I might have "vented" here, but this is the first I've talked about politics to anyone in a long time.

King

I think this thread needs to get back on topic, stat! The Presidential election debate was going great, this sidetrack into religon is a very bad idea, clearly.

I think you mean:

:offtopic :offtopic :offtopic

lol

King

Okay ... I'll reply.

I think that the problem with painting people in broad strokes is that it tends to ignore the detail that makes the picture a masterpiece.

I think that I have a wide range of friends and experiences that have allowed me to learn more about views and positions that others are not allowed to see.
My wife is Wiccan, my mother Southern Baptist, My father Catholic, and my best friend is a born again evangelical christian.

I think I make fun of them and respect them equally as I have done what I could to learn from their faiths even if I don't fully agree with everything they promote or condemn.

I think that many people have this innate desire to want to hate or dislike something that isn't like them. Be it race or religion, at some point, some people feel that their uniqueness is in danger and they make a stand against something that they don't agree with. They make this stand not because they really want to hate something outside of their world, but because they feel that if this thing was to spread, it would be a danger to their own beliefs and they attempt to do what they can to protect that.

I think that for me, I don't have the luxury to be close minded. I have to always try to see the big picture for fear of hurting someone that I love by making a generalization or uninformed opinion.

Now to bring this back on topic...

So it looks like McCain is going to be the Republician nominee

I still think it's to close to call for the Democrates ... Obama is starting to pull away from Hilary but I wouldn't count her out yet.

I love your American politics, it's brilliant. All the razz and glitz. Here in Blighty we have some really boring grey people attempt to get you excited by saying "please vote for me, we'll give you extra rubbish bins". Although i don't feel it is right for me to make any comment on your next president (due to the fact i am not American or live in your great country) i think you have the opportunity to have firsts on two factors. Your first woman president or your first black president. can't be bad for something new. we had a woman prime minister (and she kicked ass, boy did she kick ass). One thing i will say is this. I'm fairly new to this podcast and forum, I've been coming back because i love the community and friendly writings. I've had really nice message's from Moyer and Rico and i look forward to hearing off anyones else, what i do think is important is respect peoples views but lets not get moody, this is a fun place not a slanging forum.

I wouldn't count Hillary out yet either because she and her husband are the epitome of "machine politicians".  I would put nothing past these two in the their bid to regain the White House.  In a way I feel sorry for Barack Obama and what he is probably going to have to endure from that family over the next few months.  I read an article today that said Hillary will probably start to attempt to woo away the delegates that Obama has already won so far!  It is going to be an interesting next few months.

HaweyeMeds....welcome.  As to your post, you make a some good points....however "new" does not always equal "good" and Prime Minister Thatcher and Senator Clinton could not be more opposite in their beliefs or how they choose (chose) to run their respective countries.

Hawkeye Meds,

Just because you don't live here doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on who should be President. If the female PM you are referring to is Margaret Thatcher she was great! I always thought she was a tough ol' broad and I mean that in the nicest way.

Also, glad to know you are enjoying the community. I found it almost a year ago and have stuck around for the same reasons. I get under Kenny's and Rico's skin once in a while but nobody's perfect! :angel:

Kevin

And next time I will try and spell your screen name correctly out of respect to you and the great Doctor Benjamin Franklin "Hawkeye" Pierce.  ;D

A pleasure to have a reply form you both ha ha. Yes i was referring to M.Thatcher and ironically she seemed to have more balls than the men prime ministers, saying that she did go a bit mad during the end of her reign and i by the time i was old enough to vote John Major was in charge and jeez that knocked my confidence in British politics. Will keep an eye on you getting under Rico and Kenny's skin Ktrek and thanks for spelling my name right Darth, i raise a glass of martini to you both, now where are the olive's.

Quote from: HawkeyeMeds on February 19, 2008, 01:21:16 PM
i raise a glass of martini to you both, now where are the olive's.

Like Bond I prefer mine shaken not stirred but you can hold the olive! lol

Kevin

Wow, Obama wins WI. I think I am watching the Democratic Party splinter before my eye's. This election should have been a lay up for them and yet they have a real mess on their hands. If they end up nominating Obama, McCain will actually win this election. Shocking.

Quote from: Bryancd on February 19, 2008, 06:44:11 PM
Wow, Obama wins WI. I think I am watching the Democratic Party splinter before my eye's. This election should have been a lay up for them and yet they have a real mess on their hands. If they end up nominating Obama, McCain will actually win this election. Shocking.

Actually in several different polls If the election is Hillary VS. McCain then McCain wins but if it's McCain VS. Obama then Obama wins. The differential is only like 5% points over Hillary but enough to win at this point and the more momentum Obama gains the spread will even be more drastic. I still think that Hillary will find a way to buy out the super delegates and steal the nomination away from Obama, even though he will have the popular vote. I hate the delegate system the way it's currently set up.

Kevin

Kevin

Quote from: Ktrek on February 19, 2008, 07:56:26 PM

Quote from: Bryancd on February 19, 2008, 06:44:11 PM
Wow, Obama wins WI. I think I am watching the Democratic Party splinter before my eye's. This election should have been a lay up for them and yet they have a real mess on their hands. If they end up nominating Obama, McCain will actually win this election. Shocking.

Actually in several different polls If the election is Hillary VS. McCain then McCain wins but if it's McCain VS. Obama then Obama wins. The differential is only like 5% points over Hillary but enough to win at this point and the more momentum Obama gains the spread will even be more drastic. I still think that Hillary will find a way to buy out the super delegates and steal the nomination away from Obama, even though he will have the popular vote. I hate the delegate system the way it's currently set up.

Kevin

Kevin

I know but I attribute that to the incredible momentum and positive press he has been rightly receiving in comparison to Hilary. When November roles around, it's going to be a very different story, where he is going to be contrasted against a more seasoned and experienced candidate who is a moderate Republican and a war hero. Also, I am ashamed to say, I don't think at the end of the day that white America is ready to elect an African-American President when it comes down to pulling that lever in November. Sad but I think it may be true.

I think that while some of white America might not be willing, there is more of the melting pot America that is. I think that especially in the youth of America, more people are not noticing color or accepting it as a restriction. Sure there are older Americans that still carry with them the memories and views of a segregated America, but as someone once pointed out to me. Those same people that wouldn't elect someone because they are black would also be the same people that wouldn't elect a woman because she wasn't a man. It was then pointed out if forced to chose between a black man and a white woman, many would pick the man because at least he's a man.

I think this thing about experience is kind of flawed because it can be a double edged sword and Obama is running a campaign that acknowledges that he's not Washington experienced and attempts to turn that into a positive.

The problem is that surveys and polls, done on the phone, on line, mailed in, don't provide the utter anonymity that the voting both does. Ask an well meaning American if race matters to them, and they answer will likely be an impassioned no. Put that same person in a voting both and you can very well have a different outcome. It will be very interesting and a statement on the issue of race in this country. I fear we are still much more segregated than what is often portrayed in media and our cultural touch stones.

In regards to experience, again the perceived comfort it provides is easy to dismiss during the early and frenetic days of the campaign, it becomes much more meaningful to people in early November behind the curtain.

Quote from: Bryancd on February 21, 2008, 03:31:59 PM
The problem is that surveys and polls, done on the phone, on line, mailed in, don't provide the utter anonymity that the voting both does. Ask an well meaning American if race matters to them, and they answer will likely be an impassioned no. Put that same person in a voting both and you can very well have a different outcome. It will be very interesting and a statement on the issue of race in this country. I fear we are still much more segregated than what is often portrayed in media and our cultural touch stones.

Race matters to me.

Of course, when I say it like that, it sounds racist.

But race matters because different races have different viewpoints, and it is important to have a diversity of views. Class also matters for the same reason, as well as age, gender, and any other signifying characteristics.

Now, that does not translate into any sort of a "win" for Obama or Clinton from me based on race or gender. I feel that Obama should be the VP and build that political capital getting "things done", and then translate that into a campaign in four or eight years which would allow him to point to the things he accomplished.

To answer the question based in the topic of this thread - if the Dems put up a can of paint thinner as Pres with rotten fruit as the VP, I would vote for it. I don't believe this country, nor the world,  will survive another Neo-Con regime. (Of course, since McCain looks like the front runner, that [hopefully] won't be the case, but his base is still too far right for my comfort.)